Communion & Shalom

David’s friend Josh had a pretty radical experience of “healing”…

Supernatural healing is always a complex topic, and with sexual attraction this continues to prove true. Does orientation change? Should we pray for it to change? Josh used to experience same-sex sexual attraction, and through some unusual events, he is also increasingly attracted to women. We offer his story as a provoking thought piece as we try to make sense of how God may work in each of our lives.

Note: This episode briefly includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

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Timestamps

(1:22) "An overwhelmingly positive church upbringing”

(10:33) God makes a ... joke

(18:42) Experiencing (bi?) attraction after healing

(29:13) I don't prescribe theology, but don't write off healing

(43:41) Has progressive theology ever been persuasive to you?

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Links and References

Something They Will Not Forget by Joshua Gibbs

Schelli Cronk, Becky Hestness, and Kim Klayum work together at Transform MN, equipping Christian leaders across Minnesota to engage complex issues from a biblical perspective. They are also good friends who have personally and professionally been challenged over time to grow their love and care for LGBTQ friends and family. We are inspired by their deep convictions and equally deep support for LGBTQ folks. We got to hear a bit of their stories and how God’s been working through them in their communities.

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Timestamps

(01:17) Introducing Transform MN

(06:36) Personally/professionally, how do you arrive at this conversation?

(26:29) Being good allies, good friends

(37:29) Sharing truth, grace, and applying it equitably

(44:27) Encouragement and caution: be in relationship with people

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Links and References

David Frank (you know him) and Elena (podcast manager) gave a workshop talk at Revoice 2023. It was pretty great, and also, predictably, hit-or-miss with sound quality. Enjoy!

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Links and References

Joseph Pearce’s book Small Is Still Beautiful is a compelling spotlight on the "well-kept secret" of economist E. F. Schumacher. David Frank and Brendan Johnson (from episode 30) talked with Joseph about small localism versus globalism, cooperatives and sharing versus capitalist individualism, and the like. Join us for a delightful conversation around the commons, community, and collaborative flourishing.

About Our Guest

Catholic canon lawyer Daniel Quinan works for the Catholic church, not the state legal system, reviewing marriage annullment cases for the Catholic Archdiocese. If you’re Catholic, maybe you’re familiar with this system. If you’re not, it may be totally new to you. We wanted to hear from Daniel on how Catholic understandings of justice, catechism, and canon law directly impact treatment of those in the church who are LGBT/queer/same-sex attracted. David and TJ talk with Daniel about marriage, procreation, contraception, sexual intercourse, and a bunch of other topics that are legal and technical and somehow still might make your grandmother blush. (Although… we don’t know your grandmother. Maybe she’d be fine.)

Join us for our brief educational tour!

About Our Guest:

Linden Hope's debut album comes from her collection of songs processing through her own journey of faith and sexuality. Please contribute love to the "Bees" by supporting her kickstarter by November 21st.

Anna Carter and Shannon Ochoa lead Eden Invitation, a Catholic Side B ministry for LGBTQ+ discipleship. TJ and David talked with them about their founding story, mystical theology, Pride Month, the opportunity and challenges of giant gray areas, theories of change, and so much more.

We love how intensely they pursue loving God and loving their communities well. Please join us for this delightful conversation. (And yes, the retreat they mention has already happened—but there’s always next year!)

About Our Guests:

As culture shifts, Eden Invitation believes the Church must be there to meet it. We are striving disciples with LGBTQ+ experiences, building community with others who desire a way of life in congruence with Christ and His Church. Through in-person events and online community, Eden Invitation creates space to receive the whole person, grow systems of mutual support, and empower for creative discipleship.

• Anna Carter is the co-founder and President of Eden Invitation. Anna’s tenacious faith in Jesus predated her own experience of same-sex desires. Her passion for catechesis and evangelization brought her to the Franciscan University of Steubenville, NET Ministries, and the high school classroom. Now through directing the work of Eden Invitation, Anna proclaims that there is resurrected life in the midst of our longings. Anna wanted to found Eden Invitation in order to ensure there was a just pastoral response and to give light to what a “yes” to the Church’s teachings can look like.
• Shannon Ochoa is the co-founder and Vice-President of Eden Invitation. Shannon graduated from the University of Wisconsin-Madison with degrees in Social Welfare and Gender & Women's Studies. She has fallen for men and for women, but ultimately she fell for the beauty of Christ and His Church. Prior to founding Eden Invitation, Shannon worked in college campus ministry with The Evangelical Catholic and Brew City Catholic. She felt compelled to co-found Eden Invitation because she wanted disciples to know they were good, to not be afraid of themselves, and to find dynamic, faithful community. If you're looking for her, try the shore of the nearest body of water. She’ll be in a hammock.

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Timestamps

(2:20) Introducing Anna and Shannon

(3:40) The beginnings of Eden Invitation

(7:32) EI distinctives: Stepping into the longing together in community

(15:54) Connections for non-queer people?

(20:18) Catholic tradition on disordered desires, celibacy traditions, gift of self

(33:44) Relating to Courage and Desert Streams

(35:41) "People just assumed we were only a women's ministry”

(39:06) The language question: "We try to let the air out of it"

(44:38) Healing or change of sexual orientation: How do you respond?

(54:41) Engaging gender discordance

(1:00:13) On Pride: "We're trying to protect people from the shrapnel”

(1:03:15) Developing the future, “gigantic gray areas”

(1:06:02) Hope and barriers in the Catholic conversation

(1:13:03) How to connect with Eden Invitation

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Links and References

Marco Casanova is a Catholic leader of a ministry called Living Waters, helping people pursue healing, often around sexuality. TJ and David had a very engaging talk with Marco about his take on homosexuality/same-sex attraction, marriage and singleness, Pope John Paul II, and the work of healing and transformation. Within the Christian sexuality conversation, Marco’s approach might be called “Side X”, although he differs from the approach of older “ex-gay” ministries. Join us in listening and learning from our guest as we seek to understand his story and perspective.

About Our Guest:

Marco Casanova is Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries. He encountered Living Waters as a seminarian seeking answers in his broken sexuality. After eight years, Marco left priestly formation and joined the Desert Stream team. His primary task is to oversee Living Waters USA and to equip lay faithful to run effective healing groups in their church communities. He married his wife Ania in December 2022. The Casanovas are parishioners of St. Peter's Parish, Brookside, MO.

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Timestamps

(01:30) Marco's story of same sex attraction, sexual addiction

(14:25) What is "integration," at Living Waters?

(20:49) Dating with zero chemistry--advice?

(23:25) What does "spousal" design mean for chosen celibacy?

(28:35) Can everyone achieve “integration”?

(34:10) Does same-sex attraction have any gifts/goods?

(37:59) Brothers, sisters, spouses, and the "safety" of gay guys…

(45:13) If there's not marriage/sex in heaven...?

(49:07) On Exodus International, ex-gay ministries, and conversion therapy

(59:26) Differences between Side B and your perspective?

(1:08:25) What is authentic theological anthropology? (Can SSA be a part of moving forward?)

(1:25:11) Do you know Eden Invitation?

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Links and References We Mentioned

Misty Irons has been part of the faith and sexuality conversation for over 20 years. We were honored to talk to her about her journey with Side B, being an ally to queer people, and what an “accommodationist” view of Side A could look like. We’re grateful for her perspective and her intense care and thoughtfulness on topics of faith and sexuality.

About Our Guest:

Misty Irons is a friend of LGBTQ Christians and has served this community as a conference speaker, seminar leader, and podcast guest, representing a straight-ally perspective. For 16 years she maintained a blog on faith and sexuality. She is a graduate of Westminster Seminary California (M.A., Biblical Studies) and a member of the Presbyterian Church in America. She currently resides in Los Angeles, California.

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Kristyn Komarnicki started Oriented to Love 13 years ago, almost accidentally, in an effort to include the voices of gay people who weren’t present in Christian spaces that she was involved in. Since then, this program, under the aegis of the Christians for Social Action, has become deeper, broader, and more intentional about engaging Christians who have different stances on LGBT topics and bringing them into dialogue with each other.

We talked with Kristyn about how she facilitates dialogues between people with very different convictions. We appreciate her work: in helping us ask better questions. In practicing care. In becoming oriented toward love.

We hope you’ll join us!

About Our Guest:

In the spring, TJ attended a small dialogue, Oriented to Love (OTL), sponsored by the Christians for Social Action. OTL hosts thoughtful conversations across difference, specifically among Christians, both queer and straight, who take on different beliefs and positions on questions of gender, sexuality, and how those topics interact with their faith. It’s a rare opportunity when someone can hold space for people to meet, care well, listen carefully, and share their stories honestly. Oriented to Love aims not to change anyone’s mind, but to facilitate listening and thoughtful dialogue among participants.

In this episode, TJ talked David through his experience in this group conversation and the many additional questions that emerged from the experience.

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Hey there! We recorded an episode at Revoice 2023—a conference supporting Christians who are sexual minorities seeking to live out their faith according to a traditional, biblical sexual ethic. We loved doing this live episode recording with the Revoice community, and we are delighted to welcome Greg Coles and Erin Phelps to the podcast stage:

If God calls us to seek the common good of our communities—what does that mean in real life? The commons, a shared community place or resource, is a critical idea in this conversation. Even better: it’s not just an idea; it’s been practiced around the globe in many times and places. David Frank talks with friend and fellow housemate Brendan Johnson about the ways we could start thinking differently—really differently—about our public, private, and shared resources.

Our goal is to inspire you to imagine new ways of flourishing and to open the conversation further. Shoot us a message with any comments, questions, or critiques. There’s so much around this topic left to discuss!

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Timestamps

(1:21) What is “the commons”?

(5:47) Commons vs., say, a public park

(14:24) Seeking the common good in common life

(18:59) Rights to common air, water vs. privatization

(24:50) Who are “the commoners”?

(30:22) Example of 3M and the (failure of) water commons

(35:53) The tragedy of the commons

(39:17) “Beating the bounds”

(42:47) Healthcare and the mental commons

(45:23) Joy and the desire to contribute

(50:15) What it means to be human

(53:06) The commons of communion

(57:23) What we can do now

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Links and References

We (TJ and David) first connected with philosopher Joel Carini from a few of his articles on a reformed theology of same-sex attraction. In this episode, Joel joined us for a conversation around various Christian contexts, nature and grace, Side B and identity language, and, of course, philosophy. We appreciate Joel’s care and thoughtfulness around his work, and we hope (whether you agree with him or not) you’ll find his approach worth engaging!

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Ariel is a friend of this podcast and—more importantly—a friend to many humans, both queer and straight. We have seen her intuitive care and fierce kindness shine in her support of queer friends and family. We asked her to share some wisdom with us all!

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Timestamps

(02:23) Growing up in evangelical Christianity with queer friends

(11:46) The goodness of diversity in communities

(14:59) Why not use the word "ally"? Or "advocate"?

(21:20) The church has struggled to keep up with culture...and could it ever be "ahead"?

(30:32) What does it mean to be a friend (to...anyone)?

(38:55) Advice for Christians struggling with friendships with queer people

(42:34) Raising kids around differences that aren't scary

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If you like this podcast, please consider…

Paul-Anthony Turner is a gay Christian philosopher and pastor who used to be Side B (holding a traditional Christian sexual ethic of chastity in opposite-sex marriage or a celibate vocation) and is now Side A (affirming same-sex marriage). He takes TJ through his reasoning and philosophy for how he arrives at a Side A position. Preview: He likes Kant a LOT.

One of our main goals with Communion & Shalom is to bring people who believe differently than we do, and differently than each other, into conversation on difficult topics like Christian sexuality. Wherever you find yourself on these topics, we hope you’ll find this conversation gives you insight into other perspectives.

Within Christian circles on the faith and sexuality, we (especially Side B people) spend a lot of time talking about different “sides” and where we stand. Some people think we shouldn’t even talk about sides at all. While there may be merit to some of their objections, we still think it’s a valuable way of framing things. This episode explains why we keep using “Side A” and “Side B”. We might give you some new ideas, might change your mind… or it might just give you more things to argue about with us. We welcome all of those!

Ethnicity, race, nationalism… Just bringing up those words can raise the temperature of the room. These topics intersect and affect our daily lives in ways that are so important—how do we, as Christians, engage these topics well?

We share some initial thoughts on ethnicity and on why it can be important to focus on it, or de-emphasize it, in our daily lives.

We welcome your input and sharpening of these ideas, as always. Thanks for listening!

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Timestamps

(04:33) Defining “ethnicity”

(08:28) David’s ethnic background, plus a quick definition of "Mennonite”

(21:36) Finding your roots, and Disney's Moana

(28:32) TJ's ethnic background

(32:39) Tensions in community, family, and what roots you grow

(37:57) Counter-argument: “Ethnic tribalism is a threat to peaceful universalism”

(50:51) Wrapping up

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Links and References

We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa!

Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who’s grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they’ve both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face.

We value Mwendia’s perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world.

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We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives:

Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don’t agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community.

Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities. We appreciated Tate’s reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities. 

Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised. 

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Timestamps 

0:55 - Tate’s background
7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out
16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity
25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university
33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates
38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality
48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home”
50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people?
55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality?
1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use?
1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)?
1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT? 

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Links and References in This Episode 

True love means… what??

There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we’re just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms?

If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch!

This episode is part 3 of 3.

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Timestamps

4:15 - Marriage as an image of God’s love: is it more agape or eros?
17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex?
22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What’s the underlying logic?
25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction
43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model?
49:36 - Kathryn’s book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter

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Links and References

But not that kind of western romance…

Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone?

• Because your family or social circle wants you to
• Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved)
• Because you want children (or have them already)
• Because you need financial stability
• Because you’re “in love” with that person
• Because you’re “in love” with someone else

Some of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in.

We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn’t always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young.

In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages.

This episode is part 2 of 3.  For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people’s expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you.

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Timestamps

1:45 - The biology of attraction
8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement
10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery
12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century
20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere
23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church
30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice
39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it?
45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser’s poetry
49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants)
53:45 - Song of Songs in the church’s imagination
58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship”

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Links and References

What does it mean to love your best friend? Is it the same as the kind of love you have for your spouse or romantic partner? How about the kind of love that God gives us, or that we can give God?

These are questions that people have been asking in the Christian tradition for millennia. Eros is one of the Greek words for love that people have argued about. In this episode, we talk with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner about how people have defined eros, from Plato, to C.S. Lewis, to a recent conference podcast from pastor Robert Cunningham.

This episode is part 1 of 3.

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Timestamps

3:30 - What’s important about the word “eros”?
4:15 - Eros in C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves
6:55 - Summarizing Robert Cunningham’s 3 sermons on Eros
16:00 - Eros in Plato’s Symposium
20:00 - Does eros only refer to sexual love?

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Links and References

Note: This podcast includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.

Giacomo was a great conversation partner for building understanding across differences and investigating a theology of same-sex love. We encourage listeners to listen closely to try to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and to think about how people from a Side B perspective might engage with those whom they have distinct disagreements but also surprising similarities.

Giacomo Sanfilippo is an Orthodox Christian and the founding editor of the blog Orthodoxy in Dialogue, where he has become the Orthodox Church’s most well known LGBTQ advocate. Largely influenced by his work on Father Pavel Florensky, Giacomo’s perspective is grounded in an ascetic view of sexuality and same-sex love, whereby Christians are made more like God through acts of self-sacrifice and discipline.  Based on his work at Orthodoxy in Dialogue, we wanted to hear more about how he comes to his theology of sexuality, particularly as embedded in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition.

Michelle and Will are two friends who identify as asexual and queer, and we (David and TJ) wanted to hear their take on what’s good about being queer. Before that, we spent a little more time reflecting on those topics ourselves.

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Timestamps

01:00 - In which David and TJ summarize a few initial goods from their own queer experience: avoiding “the establishment”, discipleship, Plato’s take on social contributions, humility, God working in the margins.
10:45 - Please don’t feel bad if you’re not queer (or “queer enough”)
12:20 - Now, back to our regularly scheduled interview with Will and Michelle…
13:20 - Queerness can develop self-discernment, humility, self-sacrifice in suffering
24:50 - Queer people often see the brokenness of the world, need for corporate confession
27:40 - Queer people can sometimes have a “genius” for friendship, be a “safe friend”, and change the script on intimacy and masculinity
34:15 - Queerness: everyone’s a special snowflake, yes, but there’s something deeply Christian about that
39:45 - Queerness disrupts our emphasis on marriage and romance
57:40 - The scandal of a mixed gender household
58:45 - In conclusion: It’s about seeing Christ, and ourselves through his eyes

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Join us as we (David, TJ, and our friends Will and Michelle—who are asexual/queer) explore ideas of what “queerness” means. While we can’t come to one single definition, we hit on a kaleidoscope of topics as we explore the weirdness inherent in the word “queer,” the queering influence of Christianity, queerness and the arts, and ontological questions about queer sexual orientation.

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A Few Quick Definitions for Your Optional Reference

TJ talks with Lucas, a friend from the Midwest (US) who experiences same-sex attraction and generally identifies with Side B but finds understanding among several “sides” of the Christian debate. We see Lucas’s story offering an example of someone processing through faith, attraction, ethnicity, political frameworks, and arriving at a position of thoughtfulness and nuance.

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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”

• "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.

Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:

• “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic.
• ”Side X” tends to emphasize the possibility of sexual orientation change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being "ex gay."
• “Side Y” tends to avoid naming any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being "gay."

Timestamps

2:25 - Lucas' church background
7:06 - The pros and cons of different words: Same-sex attraction, gayness, and more
10:04 - Lucas' story: Naming and understanding about same-sex attraction
21:09 - Lucas' story: Sharing about same-sex attraction
29:02 - An alternate vision of marriage in culture ("we make marriage more difficult than it has to be")
35:10 - Connecting culture and ethnicity with sexuality conversations
39:25 - Why aren't you side A? (or, What is marriage for?)
43:32 - Why don't you see yourself in side X or side Y?
51:49 - Side B: More opportunity for friendships?
54:47 - Suggestions for future research on queerness
59:55 - Other intersections (intellectual traditions, multi-ethnic, etc.) with Lucas' perspective
1:02:16 - The possible role of government in sexual morality
1:09:03 - Looking to the future: Co-housing

Links and References

Below are some resources or terms that Lucas and TJ mention in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).

David and TJ sit down with Rev. Tyler Sit of New City Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA. Tyler represents a “Side A” pastoral perspective as an ordained minister for the United Methodist Church in the US. In this wide-ranging conversation, David and TJ to seek to understand Tyler's perspective, his understanding of Side B, and his take on Side A hermeneutics, particularly those centered in liberation theologies. Tyler was an excellent conversation partner in this. We encourage our listeners to listen closely to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and consider how a Side B perspective might engage similar folks.

(Note: We often use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand. "Side A" generally affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction while upholding the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.)

David and TJ get together with friend JP from the Twin Cities. We talk about JP’s movement away from “Side B” to a more agnostic and/or “Side A” position. We also get into JP’s experience with the “ex-gay” movement, people, and ministries, and we talk about issues he sees in US Christianity that make some of these conversations difficult for queer people.

In this bonus episode, TJ and David review the 6 universal moral foundations from Jonathan Haidt’s research in light of their views—and others’—on Christian queer sexuality. This is a follow-up to last week’s discussion, so you may want to listen to that episode also.

TJ and David dig into Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s social, cultural, and psychological research on the universal moral foundations, based on Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, i.e. we explore how these foundations inform our “intuitive ethics,” which give key insights to how we approach sexual ethics. We also talk through how this theory relates to different perspectives (”Sides” A, B, Y, and X) in the conversation around sexual ethics. We hope that this conversation builds up wisdom for all of us to engage better in being morally reflective, virtuous persons embedded in our larger communities, structures, and lands.

We apologize for some audio quality issues.

Trigger warning: When we are reading the first paragraphs of Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind, we mention a sex act in the first few minutes of the podcast which may make listeners uncomfortable.

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0:00 - The Righteous Mind's intro to universal moral foundations

4:47 - Quick refresher: “Side A”, “Side Y”, “Side X”, and “Side B”

9:30 - Intro to the 6 moral foundations

12:40 - Elephant and the rider (who’s steering?)

20:30 - Side A foundations for moral thinking

40:13 - The church handling polygamy in an African context

44:25 - The Bible’s emphasis on different moral foundations

49:32 - Wrapping up

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For reference, the 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team:

Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.

Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.

Loyalty/Betrayal: related to our long history as tribal persons that form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group (e.g. “one for all, and all for one”).

Authority/Subversion: shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

Sanctity/Degradation: shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).

Liberty/Oppression (a potential foundation): reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together to oppose the oppressor.

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After verbally processing on our last podcast, we read and listened to various perspectives that differ from ours and are coming back to discuss it again. This can be considered a summary of sorts of the last podcast, with some finer-tuned thoughts.

In this episode, we, joined by our friend and project manager/editor Alaina, talk about covenant brotherhood, via the particular instantiation of TJ’s covenant brotherhood/s with four brothers. TJ shares his general story, we talk about the general shape and contours of the relationship, consider its relationship to celibate partnerships, and provide general preliminary advice about what it might look like to pursue this relationship in the US context. This is the first of many planned conversations on this topic - enjoy!

Show Notes:

David and TJ get into one of the most commonly controversial topics currently regarding the Side B conversation and Side B Christians – terminology! We talk through some common reason why contemporary queer Christians may use queer/lgbt+ terminology in their lives versus people who would eschew such terms and often focus on instead using same sex (sexually) attracted (SS(S)A) terminology or else encouraging Christians not to use any such terms at all.  This conversation is of particular relevance to the differences that separate Side B and Side Y / X Christians in our contemporary times. Apologies to our listeners for some audio issues on TJ’s end.
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Show Notes: 

David and TJ discuss the goals, statuses, and potential impacts of several overtures (i.e. amendments) that were brought to the PCA national conversation in June/July of 2021. The Presbyterian Church in America's (PCA's) General Assembly was an event of much debate and controversy as this denomination tried to take a stance on ordination of "gay" pastors.  While these proposed changes won't directly affect members of PCA congregations, they do aim at barring/removing pastors and other officers from serving in the church if they identify as "gay", "SSA", etc. 

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Contents: 

00 - Intro to PCA, Revoice, Greg Johnson, Study Report, "SSA Sin", Overtures 

20 - General Assembly and 3-Step Process for Overture Amendments 

22 - Overture 16: "those who identify as homosexual and claim to practice celibacy" 

24 - Overture 23: “Those who profess an identity . . . that undermines or contradicts their identity as new creations in Christ” 

37 - Overture 37: Character examination of candidate & “must not be known by reputation or self-profession for his remaining sinfulness" 

47 - Concluding Steps and Recommended Actions 

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Links: 

David and TJ describe the “Sides” terminology/heuristic device used among many Christians engaged in the conversation around sexuality and Christianity in the US. They describe the most common fourfold system - A, B, Y, X – including the key principles that animate the particular school of thought, key organizations and/or figures, and values or postures that seem to be embedded among people in each broad school.

This conversation will be of use to listening to many future episodes as we are likely to use this system as a basic reference system when talking about the various schools of thought.

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Show Notes:

Here is David's shorthand tool for remembering the 4 sides:

Side  Affirming homosexual practice    #affirm

Side  contextualizing traditional Biblical sexuality       #renew

Side  whY talk about sexual orientation   #renounce

Side  eX-Gay therapy             #rebuild

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