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Paleo Protestant Pudcast

Paleo Protestant Pudcast

By Darryl Hart

Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians talking about church life in the U.S.
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Holy Time, Holy Cow!

Paleo Protestant PudcastApr 01, 2021

00:00
48:38
Confessional Protestants and Israel (ancient and modern)

Confessional Protestants and Israel (ancient and modern)

The Pudcast and co-hosts return thanks to the news coming out of the Middle East and stories about American Protestants' understanding of Israel and Jews.

Co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) talk about eschatology, Protestant familiarity with Israel (thanks at least to the Old Testament), the degree to which confessional Protestants (unlike American men who think about Rome) think about Jerusalem. Among the items mentioned during this session are: Roland H. Bainton and Menachem Begin, "Luther and the Jews in Light of his Lectures on Genesis: An Exchange of Letters," Lutheran Theological Journal 17 (1983) 131-34; the documentary, When Jews Were Funny; Gerald McDermott's case for Christian Zionism; Gardiner H. Shattuck's recent book, Christian Homeland, on American Episcopalians in the Middle East; and Miles Smith's article on anti-Semitism and American patriotism.

No advertisements this time - our marketing division has lost key players.

Listeners may follow two of the hosts @IVMiles and @oldlife. Korey Maas continues to avoid social media.

(Many thanks to our Southern audio engineer who makes this pudcast possible.)

Nov 27, 202351:11
What Are Denominations Good For? Absolutely Something!

What Are Denominations Good For? Absolutely Something!

After a long hiatus, the Hillsdale History Protestant confessionalists are back to talk about denominations under the broader heading of institutional Christianity. Co-hosts include Korey Maas, resident Lutheran, Miles Smith, resident Anglican, and D. G. Hart, resident (alien) Presbyterian. A question that haunts confessional Protestants is whether denominations as a vehicle for ministry have run out of steam thanks to the rise of megachurches, affinity networks among congregations of a particular spiritual hue, and the appeal of social media in creating platforms for cooperation among like minded Protestants outside the formal mechanisms of a denomination. Relevant reading that informed the discussion were pieces by Aaron Renn, Jake Meador, and Ross Douthat on the Protestant mainline denominations. Also of relevance is the example of Tim Keller who was in the Presbyterian Church of America while also creating a number of vehicles for ministry outside the denomination. One last consideration is the work of Yuval Levin on the decline of institutions in American life more generally.

As usual, listeners can follow Miles Smith and D. G. Hart on X (Twitter). Those who want to follow Korey Maas need to pound sand.

Oct 30, 202301:01:56
Machen Day for Confessional Protestants

Machen Day for Confessional Protestants

On July 28, 1881, J. Gresham Machen was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Four decades later he was an important figure in the Presbyterian controversy between conservatives and modernists, thanks in part to his 1923 book, Christianity and Liberalism, which (if you do the math) turns 100 this year.

Co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) talked earlier this week about Machen, his book, and the author's significance. This may look like shameless self-promotion on the part of the Presbyterian co-host whose dissertation at Johns Hopkins University turned into an intellectual biography of Machen, and who later wrote a book on confessional Protestantism inspired by Machen's own defense of the Reformed confessions for his own Presbyterian Church, U.S.A. But because of the 100th anniversary of Christianity and Liberalism, many editors (print and audio) have been holding forums on Machen. We figured, much to the relief of the Presbyterian co-host, that if Lutherans and Baptists could devote podcasts to Machen and his book, why not the only pan-confessional confessional pudcast IN THE WORLD!?!

This episode takes the Machen temperature of Anglicans and Lutherans and also delves into the reception of Machen within each of the co-host's formation and education.

No sponsors this time, but if editors publishing reprints of Christianity and Liberalism want to send us a thank-you note, we would be delighted to hear from them.

Listeners may not follow Miles Smith or D. G. Hart any more on Twitter. They must now use X for @IVMiles and @oldlife. Maybe the change of platforms will finally capture Korey Maas.

(many thanks to our Southern audio engineer who makes this pudcast possible.)

Jul 28, 202350:05
Have Classical Christian Schools made Christian Colleges Redundant?

Have Classical Christian Schools made Christian Colleges Redundant?

Did you know that the enrollment of Mennonite students at denominational colleges is in decline (and has been or a decade)? You probably didn't and you may not care if you have traditional confessional Protestant disregard for Anabaptists. But that trend is not isolated among Mennonites. Evangelical colleges have struggled with declining applications and enrollments even to the point where -- despite changing from colleges to "universities" -- administrators gut departments in the humanities. Lutheran Church Missouri Synod colleges are not immune to these challenges.

Even while Christian colleges struggle in the United States, the growth of classical Christian schools and academies (not to mention charter schools and homeschooling) show that parents are more active in superintending the primary and secondary education of their kids. In the case of families and churches where children are catechized and also receive religious reinforcement at school, what is the point of such a child going to a Christian college? If kids already have a solid religious and educational training, what value does Christian higher education add (especially if it is expensive)?

These were questions co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) kicked around during a recent recording. The discussion was very much open-ended -- many more questions than answers. But everyone did seem to agree that Christian schooling in America may be going through a transition that could well leave Christian higher education in the lurch.

This recording was obviously sponsored by Hillsdale College, a Christian college of an unusual kind, even though the institution went unnamed to protect the innocent.

Listeners may follow us on Twitter @IVMiles and @oldlife. Dr. Maas refuses followers.

Jun 28, 202356:01
Confessional Protestants and the Negative World (conversation with Aaron Renn)

Confessional Protestants and the Negative World (conversation with Aaron Renn)

This recording takes a different direction as co-hosts ⁠⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠⁠ (Lutheran) welcome Aaron Renn to the Paleo-Protestant Pudcast. Aaron Renn is a consultant and keen observer of American cities and social trends who has taken an active interest in American Christianity and political conservatism. Many will know him from his First Things piece on the three worlds of evangelicalism (positive, neutral, and negative). Those observations are relevant for his concerns about why evangelicals are second-class citizens in the world of American conservatism (politics). For listeners wanting a deeper dive into the place of American Protestantism within elite culture and institutional networks in the United States, his essay on the sociologist who invented the phrase - White Anglo-Saxon Protestant - and an interview about the essay are well worth consulting. Among the many hats that Aaron Renn wears, his editorial work and writing for the American Reformer is likely the one that connects most directly to confessional Protestantism. We talked for a while and could have talked longer about evangelicals, political conservatism, confessional Protestants, the value of denominations as institutions, and the cultivation of Protestant intellectuals.

This recording did not have an announced sponsor, but it may have well been Aaron Renn's substack which is the place to go to see Aaron wear most of his many hats.

Listeners may follow him at @aaron_renn but only after they follow @IVMiles and @oldlife. We all pine for Dr. Maas to do more than lurk on Twitter.

May 12, 202301:10:47
Are Confessional Churches Like Confessional States?

Are Confessional Churches Like Confessional States?

Anglicans were in the news in April which provoked co-hosts ⁠⁠Miles Smith⁠⁠ (Anglican), ⁠⁠D. G. Hart⁠⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠⁠Korey Maas⁠⁠ (Lutheran) to talk about they way confessional states operate in comparison to confessional churches. Are confessional states like England or Scotland stricter than their respective national churches? How strict can churches be when their punitive instruments are ministerial and declarative? Also, can confessional churches have more freedom in a liberal society that separates church and state than in one with an established church? Are confessional Lutherans and confessional Presbyterians in the United States more confessional than their counterparts in Europe where ecclesiastical establishments still exist?

News that led to these questions was first the decision of the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) to re-order the Anglican communion away from the See of Canterbury (which has functioned as "first among equals" among bishops). The reason for this resolve was the Church of England's General Synod's decision to bless same-sex unions.

This piece of ecclesiastical business dovetailed with an article about the new confessional state in Britain, one that is progressive and almost as restrictive as the old confessional state of England prior to the 1829 Emancipation of Roman Catholics (and related recognition of Protestant Dissenters. The essay about the new confessional state made the arresting point that the new terms of orthodoxy, because always evolving and independent of legal mechanisms, are illiberal. Under the old confessional state, subjects knew at least what the rules were and how to seek a remedy. But in the new confessional state, rules from a 2023 orthodoxy could substantially differ the "current thing" three years down the line.

This episode's sponsor is Brunswick, the company that puts the ow in bowling.

Follow us at @IVMiles and @oldlife.  If you want Korey Maas' email address, send us a direct message at Twitter.  

May 01, 202301:01:19
The F-Word (are confessional Protestants fundamentalists?)

The F-Word (are confessional Protestants fundamentalists?)

This time co-hosts ⁠Miles Smith⁠ (Anglican), ⁠D. G. Hart⁠ (Presbyterian), and ⁠Korey Maas⁠ (Lutheran) talk about the limitations of the American Protestant binary that divides white Protestants into either evangelicals or mainline (can you say "liberal"?). If a Protestant group doesn't fit one of those molds, that leaves "fundamentalist"? The inhumanity!

Each of our communions has brushes with positions, episodes, and sensibilities that might produce charges of make fundamentalism. At the same time, in a world of getting along either for the sake of mainline Protestant ecumenism or evangelical niceness, polemics about doctrine, liturgy, or even the church calendar can strike moderate Protestants and outside observers as mean and therefore fundamentalist.

To help with this session's talking points, panelists mention several books that might be useful for listeners wanting to get up to speed on confessional Protestants in relation to fundamentalism. These include:

Milton Rudnick, Fundamentalism & the Missouri Synod Allen Guelzo, For the Union of Evangelical Christendom: The Irony of the Reformed Episcopalians James Christian Burkee, Power, Politics, and the Missouri Synod: A Conflict That Changed American Christianity Ronald L. Numbers, The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design D. G. Hart, The Lost Soul of American Protestantism D. G. Hart, Defending the Faith: J. Gresham Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in Modern America

No sponsors this time. The pudcast was hoping for something Big Pharma related since the television series Dopesick made a deep impression. But reading upbeat copy about a genuine social crisis is not what fundamentalists or confessional Protestants do.

Follow us @IVMiles and @oldlife.  Korey Maas remains unfollowable.  


Apr 04, 202356:35
Frog in the Kettle

Frog in the Kettle

In this conversation, co-hosts Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) lean heavily on Korey Maas (Lutheran) to make sense of the dust up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod over a new edition of Luther's Large Catechism.  It comes from Concordia Publishing House and includes essays on various theological and moral topics.  Some in the LCMS have detected the fingerprints of progressive politics (or worse) in some of the essays even while others regard those critics as leaning too far to the Right.  This controversy relates to Presbyterians and Reformed Protestants (discussed in a previous episode) at their General Assemblies and Synods last summer potentially reflecting the nation's political climate more than they imagine.  These incidents raise questions about the ability of confessional Protestants to escape some of the moral assumptions that drive so many of the contemporary partisan divides.  If, for instance, even the deepest die-hard fans of Penn State football could not resist the rush to judgment in the Jerry Sandusky scandal (listen to this podcast to get up to speed), how well do Protestants, even with the good bones of Reformation-era confessions and functioning church polities, escape the most popular interpretations of news events and national politics?  

This episode's sponsor is Anthony Milton's recent book, England's Second Reformation: The Battle for the Church of England, 1625-1662.  

Follow us @IVMiles and @oldlife.  Korey Maas remains unfollowable.  

Feb 27, 202301:00:55
More Ecclesial Than Thou

More Ecclesial Than Thou

After a holiday break, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) catch up on highlights of downtime (and don't even mention the liturgical calendar) and then converse about a species of Protestant that goes by the name, "ecclesiocentric post-liberals."  A mouthful.  The essay that was in the background of this discussion is here.

The question of ecclesiocentrism (post-liberal or not) is of some import to confessional Protestants because Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have long contended that evangelicals, without an ecclesiology or liturgy, largely find spiritual outlets in personal devotion and parachurch endeavors.  In other words, evangelicals don't think much about church which means that confessional Protestantism is an ecclesiocentric alternative for serious Protestants.  But from an ecclesiocentric post-liberal perspective, confessional Protestants aren't ecclesicentric enough. That may make sense from Rome's perspective, but from fellow modern Protestants? Related to the article linked above is this podcast which is an ongoing discussion of ecclesiocentric post-liberalism.

This episode's sponsor is the Department of Transportation

Jan 18, 202359:58
Seasons' Greetings

Seasons' Greetings

It's the most wonderful time of the year because we have so many seasons to observe (do liturgical calendar adherents really think they can have it to themselves?).  We have post-Thanksgiving nostalgia, the start of league play in NCAA DII basketball, the end of the academic term with finals and grading, Advent, and the excess of Christmas provides welcome push back to stale Halloween lawn displays.  

In this session co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discuss those seasons with Advent taking up the majority of oxygen.  With hopes of not upsetting Anglican and Lutheran colleagues and listeners, Presbyterians may remain skeptical about the liturgical calendar and continue to wonder if the spiritual benefits that come with Advent are not more possible with fifty-two sanctified Lord's Days.  Heck, with Sabbatarianism you don't even have to put up with Lady Gaga and Dean Martin Christmas albums.  

This episode's sponsor is The Crown.  As Mr. Biden say, "no joke." 

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Email Dr. Maas at Hillsdale College.

Dec 15, 202247:02
Singing Out of the Same Hymnal?

Singing Out of the Same Hymnal?

At the end of the previous recording, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) were talking about expectations for being a good Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian.  One consideration not often in the equation is singing in worship. When a church member not only shows up for the service, but pulls out the hymnal and sings along with the rest of the saints the song selected by the pastor or priest, is he or she making any kind of show of devotion?  The answer "yes" is plausible if only because a worshiper could easily not sing and no one would object.  

This time the interlocutors get personal and talk about which hymns and Psalms are their favorites along the way to talking about the Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian traditions of congregational singing.  Listeners may be surprised to hear about the importance of Psalm singing, the relatively recent innovations of introducing hymns, and the difference that speaking German or English makes to a Protestant communion.  One book about the history of hymnody in North America mentioned was Singing the Lord's Song in a Strange Land

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter. Dr. Maas is hopeless. 

Our sponsor this episode is the Philips Digital Airfryer with Fat Removal Technology.  Remember: Maximum Taste, Minimum Fat. 

Nov 09, 202251:28
What Must I Do to be A Good Protestant?
Oct 01, 202251:50
Why Should Puritans Take All the Credit?

Why Should Puritans Take All the Credit?

Upstream from Christian nationalism, the topic of our last discussion, is the use to which historians of the United States have put denominational or church history in describing American identity (and with it American nationalism).  In this recording, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian reactions to the way two or three generations of American historians, literary scholars, and faculty in related fields after World War II used Puritanism to understand the mission, purpose, and meaning of the United States.  (Abram C. Van Engen's City on a Hill is one recent example of the way Puritanism became the distillation of American identity during the Cold War.) 

Debates among historians of the Episcopal Church in the United States (Allen Guelzo and Thomas C. Reeves contested the high vs. low-church character of the denomination back in 1993 and 1994 in the pages of Anglican and Episcopal History) are exemplary of the way denominations can react to questions about a communion's own history independent its relationship to narratives about Christianity's influence on a nation's development.  Another is to weave, as Presbyterians did, your own denomination into the success of the United States.  

Though the lessons from this discussion are hardly reducible to a bumper sticker, the place of Protestantism in the American narrative is a topic that continues to be part of the study of American history.  That in turn has implications for the way confessional Protestants tell their own histories and conceive of Lutheran, Anglican, or Presbyterian identity over against or alongside American national identity.  

Follow Dr. Smith and Dr. Hart on Twitter.  Pray for Dr. Maas to join Twitter. 

Sep 14, 202250:30
What Confessional Protestantism Teaches about Christian Nationalism

What Confessional Protestantism Teaches about Christian Nationalism

The Magisterial Reformation was one version of Christian nationalism way before evangelical historians and hysteria prone journalists discovered the sources of support for Donald Trump.  Co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of Anglican, Lutheran, and Presbyterian hopes for and reliance on civil government.  They kick off the discussion in reference to two pieces that describe Christian nationalism in damning terms, one at Mere Orthodoxy and the other at CNN. (Truth be told, even before this, they assess the ties between Anglicanism and North Carolina barbecue.)  Listeners may be disappointed not have all questions answered or tidy definitions distributed (always set expectations low), but they may benefit from hearing a perspective that considers the churches' relationship to civil authority going all the way back to Constantine. 

Recommended readings: Miles Smith has been busy here here here here and here.  Korey Maas and D. G. Hart have been reading this and that


This recording's sponsor - don't forget to use the coupon "LexingtonBarbecue." 

Aug 19, 202201:05:26
Boys of Summer

Boys of Summer

Too much for any single podcast to cover, but the regulars, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) give it their best college try.  The topic that was supposed to drive this conversation was the annual meeting of synods and general assemblies.  But because Presbyterians are much better organized (some call it anal) than Anglicans and Lutherans, the confessional Protestants only had the Christian Reformed Church Synod, and the General Assemblies of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and the Presbyterian Church in America to discuss, though Dr. Smith did bring up a convention of his ACNA Synod. What kicked off the episode was the LCMS President's statement on abortion, which might have seemed surprising to those who assume two-kingdom theology means silence about public affairs. The co-hosts also had a few brief words about Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Presbyterianism in Canada and the challenges of communions ministering across national borders

A new feature with this episode was recommendations for reflection about confessional Protestantism.  Miles Smith wrote a piece on theonomy that is especially relevant for American Presbyterians but that also applies to any Protestant communion where Christendom still has some appeal.  Korey Maas also recommended a piece by Jake Meador about Christendom in relation to the current predicament of religion and American politics after Roe v. Wade.  And D. G. Hart recommended the fraternal address from the United Reformed Churches to the OPC by Pastor Brian Lee, about to be published in the July issue of the Nicotine Theological Journal.  Somewhat outside the box, but of relevance for thinking about membership and belonging to the church (whichever one that's relevant), was a discussion between Glenn Loury and Nikita Petrov about national and racial identity and the degree to which members of groups and nations benefit from but also bear responsibility for the larger body of rulers, bad actors, and members. 

This recording may be best consumed while waiting for the coals in the grill to turn orange. 

Jul 11, 202257:32
Why Do You Need to Learn to Pray?

Why Do You Need to Learn to Pray?

Another potentially controversial subject -- especially given Presbyterians' tradition of kvetching (and more) about prayer books -- but once more co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) avoid conflict.  It's a shame.  

This recording's subject is the degree to which confessional Protestants rely upon read or formal prayers, how that affects occasions (like men's Bible study) when spontaneous prayer may be in order, and the effects on devotion in the home.  Why did Jesus teach his followers to pray and what does that instruction imply for distinguishing better from worse ways of addressing God? 

Through it all in the subtext is the question of the sort of piety and even temperament that gravitates to either formal or extemporaneous prayers. Listeners can be grateful that all the interlocutors favor congregational singing that relies on written verse instead of spontaneous (even if holy) utterance. 

May 24, 202249:00
Easter Afterglow

Easter Afterglow

Christians on social media got a lot of mileage out of typing "He is risen!" on a specific Sunday in April.  Some Presbyterians wondered about all the hub bub since during the week leading up to Easter Sunday, Jesus was was risen on each and every day.  This episode brings co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), together to talk about Easter, the liturgical calendar, and what it means or doesn't mean to them.  The hope was for interlocutors to take off the gloves and show their sectarian sides.  But all remained calm and collected.  Too bad, since the question of following the church calendar in relation to being a confessional Protestant may be significant in understanding shades of Protestantism.  

This episode's sponsor -- too little too late -- was Armbrust USA-Made Surgical Masks, which come in six different shades. 

Apr 28, 202250:19
How to Start a Protestant Magazine

How to Start a Protestant Magazine

The short answer is: go back to the early days of First Things and convince its founding editor, Richard John Neuhaus, not to convert to Roman Catholicism. Short of that, co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) consider why Roman Catholics have so many magazines and Protestants are limited to Christian Century, Christianity Today, and World Magazine (which is in a long winded way the successor to J. Gresham Machen's Presbyterian Guardian).  The reason for asking is the recent founding of yet another Roman Catholic publication, Compact.  It now joins the ranks of Crisis, National Review, American Affairs, Public Discourse, and The Lamp (among others).  All of these are outlets for American conservatism as well as forums for frustrations with the liberal aspects of such conservatism.  For anyone curious about the Roman Catholic presence in, if not creation of American conservatism, have we got a book for you.  By the way, Roman Catholics also have America (a Jesuit magazine) and Commonweal (run by the laity) which produce thoughtful articles and reviews on church and society and more.  So why can't Protestants match Roman Catholics? Sometimes confessional Protestants have produced publications, such as the Reformed Journal and Cresset.  Evangelicals even tried a book review, Books & Culture.  But in general, Roman Catholics seem to outperform Protestants in serious publications.  (Sometimes, all confessional Presbyterians can muster is the Nicotine Theological Journal, a glorified newsletter.) 

Listeners beware: the reasons available in this episode are messy and not always satisfying.

This episode's sponsor is New Balance's The 574

Apr 05, 202255:33
Why Not a Paleo-Protestant Story Hour Instead of a Drag Queen Story Hour?

Why Not a Paleo-Protestant Story Hour Instead of a Drag Queen Story Hour?

This conversation took place before Spring Break. Listeners will decide how well it aged.  The question before the co-hosts, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), was whether Confessional Protestants have any stake in either a David-French-like defense of Drag Queen Story Hour or a Sohrab Ahmari denunciation of such public events as the inevitable result of political liberalism. In other words, what alternatives do Protestants have other than integralism (Ahmari) or evangelical niceness (French)?  Spoiler alert: Protestants do have alternatives but identifying what they are precisely may require a semester rather than a pudcast.  Listeners may follow some of the co-hosts on Twitter @IVMiles and @oldlife.  

This recording was sponsored by the Library of America, volume 19, Edgar Allan Poe: Poetry and Tales.  

(Thanks again to friends in the podcasting world for assistance with production.) 

Mar 21, 202250:53
Which Confessional Protestants are Hot?

Which Confessional Protestants are Hot?

In this recording Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) take the temperature of confessional Protestants.  The notion of a "hot" Protestant has less to do with sexual appeal than with intense piety.  Michael Winship's book on the Puritans uses "hot" to describe those English Protestants who were eager to carry out the reformation in the Church of England as well as in the lives, families, and vocations of believers.  A similar tendency was evident in the most zealous of Scottish Protestants who wanted Presbyterian rather than episcopal government in the Church of Scotland.  That historical record suggests that Presbyterians are more prone to run a fever, which is ironic since for much of the twentieth century Presbyterians had the reputation of being "God's frozen chosen."  

Hotness is not peculiar to Presbyterianism, though.  Lutherans have had their challenges with Pietists, another set of Protestants who challenged the official and seemingly cold versions of Lutheranism.  Meanwhile, Anglicans have always had to decide whether the metric of high church or low church is inversely proportional to the heat of Anglican piety.  Low church Anglicans have often favored hotter forms of devotion and in the twentieth century that preference veered into charismatic expressions of piety.  

Lots of discussion in this episode.  Listeners will have to judge the degree of heat or light.  

Feb 24, 202251:40
If the Options are either Liberalism or Constantinianism

If the Options are either Liberalism or Constantinianism

The regular interlocuters, Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian), finally get to politics -- church life can only hold your attention for so long.  The reason for the shift in discussion is the larger critique that Roman Catholics and Protestants are making against political liberalism (short hand for representative government, constitutionalism, separation of powers, civil and religious liberty).  (For an evangelical -- largely squishy -- take on the matter, see this.)  These criticisms raise a larger question about the confessional Protestant churches that emerged with the Reformation.  Since they depended on the civil magistrate -- we call it the "magisterial" Reformation, after all -- are confessional Protestants ill served by a liberal political order?  Listeners will hear about the different approaches among the three confessional churches in conversation and may even be tempted to ponder the effects of the American political and cultural environment on confessional Protestant churches.

Trigger warning: find something to bite to preserve your nails. 

Jan 19, 202253:12
The Point of Christmas is Not that It Was Cold

The Point of Christmas is Not that It Was Cold

It is likely obvious by now that Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) together are not as funny as Lutheran Satire (Dr. Maas on his own may manifest the Lutheran spiritual gift).  That is a backhanded way of saying that this episode's discussion of Christmas, Advent, and December congregational singing is not nearly as pointed or as amusing as Martin Luther Yelling about Inferior Anglican Christmas Hymns.  (This episode's title comes from Luther's yelling on that video.) But the interlocutors do lay out some of the differences among Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Anglicans over the liturgical calendar and the songs that accompany them.  We do even bring up whether German hymnody receives less attention thanks to the demands of English as the native tongue for confessional Protestants in North America. 


Bonus content: Dr. Maas and Dr. Smith preached on the same Sunday in Advent from similar texts in the Lectionary.  They compare notes.  Dr. Hart is shocked.  

Bonus bonus content: bumper music.

Dec 20, 202148:08
Come to Jesus (How Someone becomes Paleo-Protestant)

Come to Jesus (How Someone becomes Paleo-Protestant)

Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) do their impersonations of evangelicals and give their testimonies in this episode.  That's a way of saying they describe the biographical route by which they came to Lutheran, Anglican, and Presbyterian churches, respectively.  Spoiler alert: theology is important (even for Anglicans).  Related: education and catechesis are also important.  What may be surprising is the influence that Francis Schaeffer had on three American Protestants, in different communions, who became adults in different decades, while living and pursuing academic degrees in different regions of the United States.  A question unanswered is the degree to which these stories are characteristic of cis-gender men or whether they might also apply to women. 

Nov 23, 202153:51
Putting the Confession in Confessional Protestant

Putting the Confession in Confessional Protestant

Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) return to talk about the way that our different communions use and rely on our confessions (Book of Concord, Thirty-Nine Articles, and the Westminster Standards).  We even go into the weeds of subscription, a topic that Presbyterians may have thought they owned but is also relevant to Lutherans.  These men even talked about revisions to confessions and whether that undermines the status of the original confessions.  Don't be surprised by the relative reticence of our Anglican interlocutor since the Church of England and its subsidiaries has shown greater attention to adhering to the Book of Common Prayer than to the (highly Calvinistic) Thirty-Nine Articles.     

Oct 21, 202152:43
The Oddities of Confessional Protestant Worship
Sep 22, 202153:44
Can Mark Driscoll Happen Here?

Can Mark Driscoll Happen Here?

Yes, that's a bit of a tease (maybe more) but it may be the best way to encourage people to listen to a conversation about church polity.  Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have many differences in theology and worship and these are likely the easiest to identify. But when it comes to the structures of government that bind and unify each of these confessional Protestant communions, awareness likely diminishes.  

In this recording Korey Maas (Lutheran), Miles Smith (Anglican), and D. G. Hart (Presbyterian) talk about the structures and procedures that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, the Anglican Church in North America, and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church use to regulate church life.  They also discuss the degree to which church government is part of a Lutheran, Anglican, and Presbyterian identity.  Spoiler alert: Presbyterians put church government into their very own denominational label, and yet members of Presbyterian churches often do not know the basics of their own communion's government.  Why Presbyterians have been so particular historically about church polity and what it means for the health of Presbyterianism that many church members are unaware of ecclesiastical government lurk in the background of this session. Spooky. 

So does Mark Driscoll who it turns out decided not to become ordained by an existing church but chose to start his own (along with a larger network of churches).  Which leaves two questions: does church government scare American Protestant entrepreneurs away (it is a self-selecting mechanism)? If Driscoll had been ordained in a confessional Protestant church, could one of those bodies have saved him from himself?  

Aug 24, 202159:31
Rodney Dangerfields All

Rodney Dangerfields All

Confessional Protestants are again NOT in the news thanks in part to a new survey that breaks the white Protestant world in the U.S. down into either evangelical or mainline Protestant camps.  Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) aimed at using the recent headlines surrounding those survey results to consider what the Protestant equivalent would be to the Roman Catholic intellectual landscape that Ross Douthat outlined in First Things.  As it turned out, discussion of the value, plausibility, and deficiency of evangelical as descriptor took more time than planned.  But the creation of the so-called evangelical mind, it could well be, is responsible for a failure to recognize the contributions of confessional Protestants.  Equally plausible is the possibility that confessional Protestants themselves have lost touch with the intellectual tradition (authors, curricula, academic disciplines) that were the backdrop for the scholars and pastors who produced the Protestant confessions.  In which case, if Roman Catholics present a thicker intellectual tradition than Protestants, the reason could be that their institutions have kept their intellectual traditions alive better than Protestants who may have been tempted to throw their intellectual energies into the evangelical mind. 

Along the way the interlocutors referred to Miles Smith's recent essay on evangelical elites and to the range of Christian writers and scholars that Ken Myers hosts on the Mars Hill Audio Journal

Jul 23, 202101:08:14
Church History and Protestant Identity

Church History and Protestant Identity

The stories we tell about ourselves, our nations, and our communions matter for how we understand ourselves.  Whether church history should matter as much as it does to Anglican, Lutheran, or Presbyterian identity, the origins, controversies, splits, and turning points in a communion's history matter for how church members understand themselves in relation to a Christian tradition and its ecclesiastical embodiment.  It doesn't make a lot of sense, for instance, for Anglicans and Lutherans to see themselves as part of the Second Not So Great Awakening since perfectionism, holiness, and Arminianism characterized those revivals.  But when it comes to the First Pretty Good Awakening, the presence of an Anglican priest (George Whitefield) and a one-time Presbyterian (Jonathan Edwards) may tempt Anglicans and Presbyterians in different degrees to identify with that time of religious fervor (and with the later evangelical movement).  

This episode was the occasion for Korey Maas, Miles Smith, and D. G. Hart (aka Bob Dole) to talk about the status of the history of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and Presbyterianism (and help Dr. Smith get ready for this course).  They took the temperature of the appeal of church history to the laity and church members in their communions.  They also discussed the challenge of telling a denomination's history in relation to the history of nation-states (why do American historians get to confine their inquiry almost solely to the geographic borders of the United States while Europeanists have to juggle all the pieces of Western Christianity and the big and small nations of Europe?).  They also referred to Christian nationalism in places like France and Spain (which are topics on another podcast about Religious Nationalism).   

The talkers also talk about the larger-than-life presence of Lutherans (Jaroslav Pelikan, Lewis Spitz, Marty Marty, Sydney Ahlstrom) in the field of church history a generation or two ago?  Does that mean that Lutherans have a greater historical awareness than Presbyterians and Anglicans?  If that question doesn't encourage you to listen, what will? 

Jun 29, 202159:43
The Laity and Holy Office (read ordination)
May 28, 202159:35
God May Not Slumber Or Sleep But Do Confessional Protestants?
Apr 30, 202156:59
Holy Time, Holy Cow!

Holy Time, Holy Cow!

For many confessional Protestants, this week is the big one, the Holy One. Which leads to questions about ways Presbyterians, Anglicans, and Lutherans mark time. Which days are holy, which seasons does the church follow, and to what degree does a liturgical calendar divide or separate Protestants who trace their roots to the sixteenth century? 

Without surprise, Lutherans and Anglicans follow the church calendar more than Presbyterians and may vary in their reasons for observance.  But Reformed Protestants designate some days as holy and may even elevate the week as a way of marking time over the rotation of the earth around the sun.  

All this and maybe a little more on the latest recording of paleo-Protestants talking. 

Apr 01, 202148:38
Round Three: Hot Protestants, Cold Presbyterians

Round Three: Hot Protestants, Cold Presbyterians

The three part series of comparing and contrasting confessional Protestant churches in the U.S. comes to a close with Presbyterians this time.  Younger listeners may have a hard time understanding that during the two decades after World War II, Presbyterianism was in the sweet spot of American identity.  Of course, that did not extend to conservative communions like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.  But with POTUSes and movie stars lining up to commune in mainline Presbyterian congregations, you could readily find books like John A. Mackay's The Presbyterian Way of Life, which received this assessment from Kirkus Reviews:

Having been steeped in the Presbyterian tradition of his native Scotland, Dr. Mackay knows and loves the Presbyterian Church. In this book he deals with the background of the Presbyterian Church in the life and work of Calvin and in the Westminster Confession. He characterizes Presbyterians as a ""theological- concerned people"", and illustrates this characterization by reference to the Presbyterian doctrines dealing with God, man and the church. He describes the organization of the Presbyterian Church, the features of its worship and its relation to the world order. While a staunch Presbyterian, Dr. Mackay is not a narrow one and in his closing chapter he outlines the part that Presbyterians have played and are playing in the ecumenical movement. Those who have had experience in interdenominational enterprises know that Presbyterians can always be counted upon for cooperation. One reason for this is that the denomination has raised up many men of the liberal and progressive spirit of John Mackay.

Has Presbyterianism lost its way?  Do Anglicans and Lutherans pay attention to Presbyterians?  If so, as partners, a threat, or as whackos? All this and more in this recording. Introductions to the pudcast and the interlocutors are available here

Mar 12, 202150:59
Round Two: Anglicans

Round Two: Anglicans

The latest recording of three Protestant history professors talking shines the spotlight on Anglicanism with Dr. Miles Smith taking heat and receiving praise for his communion's contribution to confessional Protestantism.  The conversation (with Dr. Korey Mass, the Lutheran, and Dr. D. G. Hart, the Presbyterian) began with recent news about Episcopalians' apologies for hosting evangelical celebrity pastor, Max Lucado, at the National Cathedral to preach.  This item provided space for distinguishing Anglicans from Episcopalians.  And that distinction in turn led to various questions about Anglican identity.  Two recent books, mentioned at least, Gerald Bray's Anglicanism: A Reformed Catholic Tradition and Charles Erlandson's Orthodox Anglican Identity are valuable for answering those questions.  Much of the discussion, though, revolved around the appeal of Anglicanism to evangelicals in contrast to the limits of such attraction among confessional Lutherans and Presbyterians.  To borrow a line from H. L. Mencken, heave an egg down the hall of an evangelical institution in Wheaton, Illinois and you'll hit an Anglican. 

No one died. 

Feb 26, 202144:28
Are Lutherans the Rodney Dangerfield of Confessional Protestantism?
Feb 11, 202144:33
Seminaries for Anglicans, Lutherans, and Presbyterians (or all the above)
Jan 29, 202154:23
What is a Paleo-Protestant and What Does He Sound like?

What is a Paleo-Protestant and What Does He Sound like?

Korey Maas teaches history at Hillsdale College.  He also talks a lot about Lutheranism of the LCMS variety.

Miles Smith teaches history at Hillsdale College.  He writes about Anglicanism.

D. G Hart teaches history at Hillsdale College.  He talks about Presbyterians sometimes with other Presbyterians. 

Thanks to Chortles Weakly for technical assistance. 

Jan 14, 202152:35