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Emerge: Making Sense of What's Next

Emerge: Making Sense of What's Next

By Daniel Thorson
A podcast based inquiry into the next phase of the human experiment.
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Robert MacNaughton - Learnings from the Life and Death of the Integral Center

Emerge: Making Sense of What's Next

David Sauvage - The Future of Collective Decision-Making
A conversation about how emergence can be the foundation a new society. We talk about how societies can create containers for healthy decision making. And how sacred containers can allow for the emergence of the planetary movement we’re longing for. David Sauvage asks, how do we create the more beautiful world our hearts know is possible? In my first episode after returning from the Emerge gathering in Austin, we discuss the future of collective decision-making, reflect on our shared past with Occupy Wallstreet, and consider the role of participatory democracy in what is emerging. David puts preliminary words to a vision originating from the gathering this summer. [00:00:00] Introducing David [00:05:24] David’s Vision from the Emerge gathering. [00:10:35] Occupy Wallstreet [00:29:30] The future of politics. [00:44:55] The Third Attractor.
August 06, 2022
Gary Sheng - To Actualize Game B, Empower Gen Z
Gary Sheng is a US-based technologist and civic entrepreneur dedicated to building tools, systems, and movements that accelerate human and planetary flourishing. He was recognized by Forbes 30 Under 30 for his work building Civics Unplugged. In this conversation we offer some friendly critiques of the emerging network and discuss how we can empower the next generation to actualize Game B. [0:00:00] Introducing Gary [0:16:40] Civics Unplugged [0:21:05] Dream DAO [0:39:11] Gary’s view of the emerging network from the outside in.
June 15, 2022
Steve March - An Integrated Ecology of Practice for the Meta-Crisis
Steve March is the creator of an integrated ecology of practice and founder of Aletheia Coaching. In this episode we get into the history of coaching, depth and the fourth generation of coaching, going from self-improvement to self-unfoldment, Heidegger’s view on technology and attunement, depth ontology, eclecticism to integration, parts conflict in ecologies of practice, four depths of self-contact, internal family systems. Aletheia Coaching: Steve's Paper on the Neuroscience of Transformation: [0:02:36] Introducing Steve [0:09:00] First, Second, Third Generation Coaching [0:13:43] Aletheia and the Fourth Generation of Coaching [0:18:10] What if we are already whole? [0:18:47] Reservations about the term “coaching” [0:20:38] Exploring Unfoldment [0:24:57] Technological Attunement and Poetic Attunement [0:44:53] Invoking Poetic Attunement [0:53:20] Deeping eclecticism into integration [1:37:00] Scaling Psychotechnologies
June 13, 2022
Sean Wilkinson - Circling, Meditation & Trauma
Circling Europe co-founder Sean Wilkinson and I explore what it's like to practice across paradigms, the limits and transformational potential of circling, and the interplay between mediation, circling, and trauma work. Sean shares from his experience about the problems with static orientations to practice, subtle grasping to personal growth, and the orientation of trust. Sean Wilkinson is a Circling Europe co-founder with an enduring passion for self-awareness, human potential, wisdom traditions and an ongoing inquiry into life. His focus includes extensive academic research, spiritual and psychological practice, coaching, and therapeutic training. [0:02:53] Introducing Sean [0:06:00] What is at the edge of meditation, circling, and trauma work? [0:10:00] Discovering the limits of circling [0:16:55] Exhausting an Orientation to Practice [0:33:50] Scale Invariance [0:39:10] Eclecticism to Integration [0:49:10] The Orientation of Trust [1:05:10] The Feeling Process [1:25:20] A short guided meditation [1:41:20] Metamodernism and the Meta-Crisis (mesa crisis?) [1:42:42] The Paradigm of Leadership If you'd like to explore the practice of Circling MAPLE is hosting the SAS 6-month Circling Training starting in June.
May 23, 2022
Circling & Soulmaking with Ellen McSweeney & Daniel Thorson
In this episode fellow Monastic Academy resident Ellen McSweeney and I explore the relationship between Circling and Soulmaking in an attempt to make sense of the experience we shared co-facilitating the Anti-Fragile Heart retreat in March. Towards the end there is a Q+A with retreat participants.  If you'd like to explore the practice of Circling MAPLE is hosting the SAS 6-month Circling Training starting in June. This conversation was recorded in the meditation hall at the Monastic Academy, and the audio is a little wonky...
April 14, 2022
Mark Feenstra - Renormaling: Fractal Harmony in Action
In this episode Mark Feenstra guides me through his 'accompanying' process. This process, which Mark has developed after 25 years of experimentation, is something like a systems collapse aware mixture of Circling, Internal Family Systems, and Imaginal practice...but really it's totally unique (and very potent!). Mark is offering a workshop on this approach on December 11th/12th. If you'd like to join you can click here:
December 04, 2021
Layman Pascal - Spiritual Practice as Harmonization
Layman Pascal is an author, speaker, and body-mind-soul at large in the Integral and Metamodern scenes.  In this episode we dive into Layman's 'integration surplus' model of spiritual practice. This model offers an integrative lens through which to view all transformative practices. Through my work at the Monastic Academy I developed a startlingly similar 'harmonization model' of spiritual practice, which forms the conceptual basis of the curriculum for the Willow Intensive. You can learn more about that in this companion episode with John Vervaeke. In this conversation with Layman we explore some of the deeper ramifications and affordances of this way of looking at transformative practice.  If you'd like to explore this way of approaching practice more deeply we are offering two online courses: October 19 - November 9 at 11:30 a.m. ET: Intro to Harmonization: A New Ecology of Practices Register: October 22 - November 12 at 6:00 p.m. ET: Jade Method Meditation Course Register: -------------------------- In this conversation Layman and I speak about: - How the harmony model arose out of Layman’s spiritual & philosophical practice - That all spiritual practices can be framed in terms of harmonization, and why that is so significant - Why it’s important that this model is ‘ontologically agnostic’ - The common confusion between harmony and unison - The role of meeting conflict in order to reveal a deeper harmony - The four fundamental proto-skills to help us harmonize any system - How super abundant harmony can help us identify what is valuable and good in any context - The value and limitation of awakening, and why it can sometimes lead to unskillful behavior
October 12, 2021
Harmonizing to Emerge with John Vervaeke
John Vervaeke speaks with Seishin and myself about the ecology of practices we are exploring in the Willow Intensive. This was originally recorded on The Stoa. This episode includes a brief overview of the Harmony model and the five aspects we've been training to harmonize. We discuss the obstacles and opportunities of birthing a new kind of wisdom institution in the modern world, and the necessity of having an ecology of practices to adequately transform the human mind during a time of planetary crisis (and much more). The conversation ends with a Q&A. We are offering two online courses for those who would like to explore these practices more deeply: October 19 - November 9 at 11:30 a.m. ET: Intro to Harmonization: A New Ecology of Practices Register: October 22 - November 12 at 6:00 p.m. ET: Jade Method Meditation Course Register:
October 12, 2021
Soryu Forall - Responding to Collapse: Virtue and Possibility at the World's End
Is it still possible to create a more beautiful future for life on earth, or are we now merely stewards for the dying process of our world? How do we live with the weight of this uncertainty? Soryu Forall responds to these questions during a recent lecture at the Monastic Academy. Soryu is the founder and head teacher at the Monastic Academy for the Preservation of Life on Earth (MAPLE). You can hear my previously recorded conversation with Soryu by clicking here.
August 12, 2021
Rob McNamara - Adult Development & Ensoulment
Rob McNamara is an author, leadership coach, advisor and consultant with expertise in adult development and human performance. He is a co-founder of the leading consulting firm Delta Developmental, a faculty member for the Ivey School of Business' LIFT Advanced Coaching Program, and is a Senior Monk and Integral Zen Dharma Holder training with Diane Musho Hamilton Roshi. McNamara’s coaching focuses leaders on clarifying life purpose, growing critical leadership skills to advance value creation and fostering organizational development to enhance learning and innovation. MAPLE Fundamentals Online Training (Cohort Begins August 8th) Vision Quest at the Monastic Academy (September 10th - 19th) Show Notes: 00:02 Who do we need to become to navigate this planetary meta-crisis? 00:05 “Revolutionary enfoldment” / new vectors of development 00:10 Limitations of just adding more complexity 00:18 Takes 10 years. Do we even have that? XR: “sacrifice for future generation” — Hero frame 00:26 Exploring other distinctions / sovereignty and surrender 00:33 “If we’re not willing to die, we don’t get to touch the ineffable grace of life” 00:36 The diversification of identity 00:43 The illumined reality / world as image structure 00:51 What needs to happen in public? / education 00:55 How do we cultivate the capacity to attune to image? / image is prior to language 01:04 Circling / need for community 01:08 “giving someone an image that is not their own” 01:11 Omniwin / “image structure is not an exhaustible resource” 01:14 Finite and infinite games / “switching arena of pathos to soul-making” / “game on, forever” 01:16 How to increase access to this? 01:19 Organizational development / “If this is our last thing, what do we do?” 01:22 How do we ground this in community? / problem-solving / play 01:25 Robert = “bright counselor” 01:28 Wrap-up
July 24, 2021
Zak Stein - The Eros of Ethics
In this first conversation after a year sabbatical from the Emerge project I'm speaking with Zak Stein. This is a far ranging conversation about ethics, education, trauma, the erotics of moral understanding, and more.  Support me on Patreon Show Notes 0:00 Opening 0:03 How to create the kinds of humans who can respond to the meta-crisis? 0:08 “We’re not sure what it means to be good anymore” / what’s worth loving 0:09 Eros and Ethics / Ensoulment 0:17 Moral development 0:23 “How do you get someone interested in what is truly good?” 0:25 Linking / meta-psychology 0:29 Community ethics feedback loops 0:33 Objective ethics 0:37 Embodied ethical sensing 0:38 Intersection between Trauma & Ethics, desensitization, somatic de-armoring 0:43 Trust, return of the Sacred 0:47 The Moral Exemplar 0:52 Exposure to the full ethical range 0:54 “Trauma” in culture 0:62 Evil 0:68 Practices for Wellbeing 0:72 “Enlightenment is your greatest disappointment” 0:74 Eros & Ethics 0:77 Human as ethical actor, intimacy and obligation 0:81 Circling, following “aliveness”, co-discovering moral landscape 0:85 Path = compromising moral integrity increasingly intolerable 0:88 Ethics in Community, MAPLE’s advantage 0:90 Closing
June 28, 2021
Emerge Returns: Solo Episode
Emerge is back! This is a solo episode where I share a few life updates and thoughts about the evolution of the Emerge podcast. Support me on Patreon
June 28, 2021
The End of Emerge (For Now)
I've decided to put this project on hold and dedicate myself more fully my work and training at the Monastic Academy. In this episode I share some of the thinking and feeling that went into my choice. If you'd like to support me in my training and work you can do so through Patreon. A few recent pieces I've read that are relevant to this episode: Cutting Through Spiritual Colonialism by Vinay Gupta Mindfulness: Developing Agency in Urgent Times by Jamie Bristow & Rosie Bell
September 18, 2020
Zak Stein - American Culture's Psychotic Break (pt. 2)
In the first episode after my 75 day silent retreat I sat down with Zak Stein to speak about the the current cultural moment and how we can respond to the chaos and uncertainty of the world with love and integrity. This is part two of a two part episode. In this episode we discuss: - An overview of Zak’s metapsychology - How the psyche is a triple of development, ensoulment, and transcendence and why one must work on all three - How much of the talk about ‘sense making’ is missing two thirds of the picture - The noetic function of love - The relationship between language, image and symbol - How ensoulment lags behind development and transcendence in terms of emphasis in transformational culture - Why working with image and ensoulment might be the most important work that can be done right now - What image has to do with the resolution of the meaning crisis - Zak’s theory that, at some point, a shared cultural image will spontaneously create collective coherence - How ethics is implicated in Zak’s metapsychology - How virtue ethics is the antidote to virtue signaling
July 09, 2020
Zak Stein - American Culture's Psychotic Break (pt. 1)
In the first episode after my 75 day silent retreat I sit down with Zak Stein to speak about the the current cultural moment and how we can respond to the chaos and uncertainty of the world with love and integrity.  This is part one of a two part episode. We discuss: - My experience coming out of retreat into a 'post-covid' world - How strange and problematic it is that people speak with confidence about the world right now - How our media ecology forces us to take on perspectives even when uncertainty and ambiguity is more trustworthy - That sense-making has everything to do with acting from embodied love, and NOT about having the correct meta-narrative - How ideology acts on our lives to make it difficult to love and see each other - How we get captured by the simulation of reality being played out on social media and how that debases our lived relationships - How to respond to the psychotic break our culture is going through - Why we need to pull out of mainstream culture, reorient, and pull together a critical mass of coherence and sanity The NY Times article about my experience coming out of retreat COVID-19: A War Broke Out in Heaven by Zak Stein
July 01, 2020
Soryu Forall - Manufactured Awakenings
Soryu Forall is the founder and head-teacher of the Monastic Academy.  Soryu has a decade of intensive monastic training, a degree in Economics from Williams College, and extensive experience in social and environmental justice. He was ordained in 1998 at Sogen Temple under the tutelage of the Zen Master Shodo Harada. The day this recording goes live I'll be beginning an 80(ish) day silent solo retreat here on the land of the Monastic Academy. By the end of this episode,  I hope you'll understand why I would do such a thing. We discuss: How awakening enables us to be of true service in times of crisis How easy it is to fool ourselves about the depth of our experience and insight Soryu’s personal crisis upon learning of the Japanese Zen traditions participation in the atrocities of World War Two A vision of awakening that is adequate to the meta-crisis Whether it makes sense to disconnect Waking Up, Growing Up, and Cleaning Up Does awakening make us more ethical? Better at making decisions?  The difference between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ enlightenment according to the Buddhist eightfold path What kind of monsters ‘wrong’ enlightenment creates Why transformative practices disconnected from ethical training is so dangerous How the cultural assumptions of liberalism, humanism, and materialism distort our understanding of what awakening is How your aspiration creates your understanding of the path Why it’s necessary to do these practices in community Soryu’s definition of awakening And more! 🧘‍♂️🧘‍♀️ Monastic Academy Podcast Donate to the Monastic Academy
March 13, 2020
Andrew J. Taggart - Existential Openings & Psychotechnologies of Self-Transformation
Andrew J Taggart is a practical philosopher, Zen Buddhist, and entrepreneur. Recently Andrew wrote an article called 'Psychotechnologies of Self-Transformation' that led me to reach out to him and schedule a conversation. This episode was recorded a few months ago, but it occurs to me as exactly the right time to release it. If you are feeling panicked about the Corona Virus, I'd encourage you to slow down, get a hot cup of tea (or go for a walk outside) and enjoy this warm-spirited philosophical conversation. We inquire about: Why aren't human beings kinder to each other, let alone to all sentient beings? Is liberalism, humanism, and nihilism at the root of the meta-crisis? How social media requires a self-enclosed narcissistic humanism to function How do we move beyond humanism into a new cosmological sense of being? Is it possible to install new modes of being in time to confront the planetary challenges facing us? The necessity of existential openings as a portal to self-inquiry Whether we need to administer 'gentle shocks' to help people enter into spiritual crisis as quickly as possible How can we help ensure that instances of emergency and crisis can touch the heart and open the spirit? How do we precipitate mass existential opening? How do we help others encounter the truths of their heart? What Andrew has learned about having skillful philosophical conversations The importance of becoming sensitive in conversation to what Andrew calls 'existential weight' Why we must change our lives according to our existential truths, and the consequences of not doing so What is an adequate new definition of the human being that supports the emergence of a broadly contemplative culture Does wisdom arise from awakening, or does awakening arise from wisdom? What are the most important virtues to be cultivated now, in this time between worlds? Andrew's Home on the Internet
March 11, 2020
Jonathan Reams - Waking Up & Growing Up: How Seeing the Virtuality of Self Supports Adult Development
Jonathan Reams works at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), serves as Editor-in Chief of Integral Review, and is a co-founder of the Center for Transformative Leadership and of the European Center for Leadership Practice. He brings awareness based leadership development practices to his work, focusing on how the inner workings of human nature can develop leadership capacities for today’s complex challenges. His recent research and practice has focused on subjects such as; the impact of Immunity to Change based coaching, theoretical foundations of resistance to change, the integration of psychological and cognitive skill based assessments and the use of narrative based tools combined with developmentally informed reflection prompts for scaling development. We inquire into: What do we mean when we talk about human development? Why are there so many different models of adult development? Are higher stages of adult development all one thing or are there many different types of maturity? The various types of developmental models and the key differences between them How do we develop as moral and ethical beings? How does seeing the 'virtual' nature of the self help us become more mature and wise humans? And more! Enjoy. ❤️ Check out to see more about Jonathan's work and writing.
March 11, 2020
Robert Kegan - The Five Stages of Adult Development (And Why You Probably Aren't Stage 5)
Robert Kegan is a psychologist who teaches, researches, writes, and consults about adult development, adult learning, and professional development. His work explores the possibility and necessity of ongoing psychological transformation in adulthood. He is perhaps most well known as the author of The Evolving Self, In Over Our Heads: The Mental Demands of Modern Life, and An Everyone Culture.  In this conversation we talk about: What is a good definition of an 'adult'? The phasic vision of adult development The variety of developmental logics in the human mind A tour of the 5 stages of adult development What people get wrong about his 5 Stage model of human development Why you are almost certainly not ‘Stage 5’ if you're under the age of 40 The gap between philosophical understanding and developmental attainments Why you might take on a Stage 5 philosophical orientation from the Stage 4 developmental level (and what that might look like) The most important developmental stage transition for the majority of humans What transcending the limits of the socialized mind means for our planetary culture The Monastic Academy Awakened Leadership Bootcamp
March 06, 2020
Mark Feenstra - The Inner Dimension of the Meta-Crisis
In this episode, I'm speaking with Mark Feenstra. Mark is co-founding a consulting and training ecosystem and incubator, called New Mainstream, which focuses on large scale change that starts with ourselves and the possibility of a new mainstream. Mark is also in the process of founding a land-based community to ground the possibility of actualizing a new mainstream, initially in Golden Bay, New Zealand.  Over the last year or so I’ve been lucky enough to have a number of conversations with Mark. He, as much as anyone I’ve encountered, really lives the sort of inquiry that I’ve been attempting to embody on this show. Every time I speak with Mark I feel like I’m falling into some wormhole of understanding and coherence. Mark has an amazing ability to bring these topics down to earth without sacrificing the ambiguity and playfulness that is the lifeblood of beautiful conversation.   We talk about:  Shifting from a Game A to Game B mental operating system  The fractal nature of the meta-crisis and how it lives within each of us  What integrity really means (and whether a crisis of integrity at the heart of the meta-crisis)  Whether the split between individual transformation and systems transformation is an artifact of Game A consciousness  Why attempting to fix or heal the crisis is a red herring Integrity as an emergent property of coming into relationship with wholeness  How noticing the lack of integrity is a proximal cause of integrity  The relationship between integrity and omni-win decision making  And the beautiful impossibility of true omni-win decision making   Monastic Academy Awakened Leadership Bootcamp
March 01, 2020
Rob Burbea - Emptiness, Postmodernism, and Sacred Participation
On this episode I'm joined once again by meditation teacher and author Rob Burbea. For this conversation Jamie Bristow and I talk with Rob about his approach to emptiness, and how it can be a route beyond postmodern nihilism and into a vibrant and sacred participation in the world. We talk about: An overview of the ‘ways of looking’ approach to emptiness,  the participatory nature of perception & the world,  how perception gets fabricated through our participation,  the limitations of a purely cognitive deconstruction ala postmodernism,  how Rob would define emptiness if asked about it at a cocktail party,  How emptiness reveals a path beyond post-modernity,  how hidden commitments limit our ability to explore perspectives,  the unavoidability of participation and the impossibility of neutrality,  the middle way between existence and non-existence, how this approach to emptiness offers a way forward in a ‘post-truth’ world,  how your experience right now is constellated by your way of seeing (whether you know it or not),  and the necessity of practice to realize the deeper dimensions of emptiness. Seeing that Frees [Amazon] Rob on the Deconstructing Yourself Podcast 2009 Emptiness Retreat Dharma Talks
November 25, 2019
Jamie Bristow - Mindfulness as Metamodern Psychotechnology
Jamie Bristow joins the show to respond to critiques against the mindfulness revolution and to make the case for mindfulness as a key metamodern cultural technology. Jamie is Director of The Mindfulness Initiative, the world's first policy institute about mindfulness. Jamie now works with politicians around the world to help them make capacities of mind and heart serious considerations of public policy.  Topics discussed include: A snapshot of the current state of the mindfulness revolution, where we are at in the ‘hype cycle’ of mindfulness, a response to the current crop of critiques of mindfulness and in particular Ronald Pursers ‘McMindfulness’ critique, how mindfulness allows us to rescue our attention the clutches of the attention merchants, the attentional capacities of mindfulness as fundamental ground for mass action and civil disobedience in the 21st century, the symmetry between mindfulness and the concept of Sovereignty as promoted by Jordan Greenhall and Daniel Scmachtenberger,  and what might be available at the deeper end of practice... 🤩 Jamie's Article on OpenDemocracy
November 18, 2019
The Future of the Emerge Podcast
A solo episode where Daniel shares his vision for the next turn in the inquiry of the Emerge podcast.
November 04, 2019
Rebel Wisdom // Future Thinkers // Emerge - Making Sense of the Sensemaking Web
David Fuller, Mike Gilliland and I spend time jamming on the conversational space that we have been participating in, and attempt to make sense of where this all might be going...
October 14, 2019
Ronan Harrington - Extinction Rebellion: Collective Sacrifice and Metamodern Praxis
This week I'm speaking with Ronan Harrington about Extinction Rebellion. We talk about the strategic dilemmas of Extinction Rebellion, and how it functions as a practical exploration of metamodern theory.  Previous Emerge episode with Ronan We chat about: - The limits of philosophical conversation and the need for practical movement building - The challenge of moving from collective awareness to collective action - The possibility of inspiring an ethos of sacrifice as a portal to action - Extinction Rebellions upcoming actions beginning October 7th, which are positioned to be the largest direct action in UK history - Our mutual desire to move beyond conversations and into experimental action And much more... Extinction Rebellion International Rebellion  
October 03, 2019
Guy Sengstock - Circling Towards Meaningfulness & Collective Intelligence
In this episode I'm speaking with Guy Sengstock. Guy is the creator/discoverer of Circling, a relational meditation practice that is quickly spreading across the world.  In this conversation, we cover such topics as: - Guy’s take on what Circling is - How Circling has revealed itself over the years to Guy - What it means to obey what we discover in our practice(s) - How we know to get interested in something - The mystery at the heart of the practice of Circling - Where the sacred and the divine live in Circling - Why other people are terrifying - Circling and Collective Intelligence - How conversations make the world - How making fine distinctions brings the world into being The Circling Institute
September 23, 2019
Zak Stein - Metapsychology, Soul, and Collapse (Pt. 2)
In this episode, I'm speaking with writer, educator and futurist Zak Stein. We discuss 'Metapsychology', Zak's attempt to answer the question 'what is the human?' brought up in our previous conversation about a vision for metamodern education. This is part two of a two part conversation. It's recommended that you listen to my previous conversation with Zak on Education and the Meta-Crisis before you listen to this episode. Apologies for the sound quality on this episode, it's a little rough around the edges. 😕 We talk about: - What is soul? - How to understand suicide and collapse from a soul perspective - The symmetries between suicide and the movement towards collapse we are collectively moving towards - How metapsychology helps us understand what the human being is - How our entertainment industry functions to repress our encounter with death - Why you can't do educational design without metapsychology - The difference between spirit and soul
September 17, 2019
Zak Stein - Metapsychology, Soul, and Collapse (Pt. 1)
In this episode I'm speaking once again with writer, educator and futurist Zak Stein. We discuss 'Metapsychology', Zak's attempt to answer the question 'what is the human?' brought up in our previous conversation about a vision for metamodern education. This is part one of a two part conversation. It's recommended that you listen to my previous conversation with Zak on Education and the Meta-Crisis before you listen to this episode. Apologies for the sound quality on this episode, it's a little rough around the edges. 😕 We talk about: - What is soul? - How to understand suicide and collapse from a soul perspective - The symmetries between suicide and the movement towards collapse we are collectively moving towards - How metapsychology helps us understand what the human being is - How our entertainment industry functions to repress our encounter with death - Why you can't do educational design without metapsychology - The difference between spirit and soul
September 10, 2019
Future Thinkers - Cultivating Human Sovereignty
Today on Emerge I’m speaking with Euvie Ivanova and Mike Gilliland, hosts of the Future Thinkers podcast. In this conversation we explore the concept of Sovereignty, how we are practicing it in our lives, and why it’s such a significant tool in service of the evolution of consciousness. Topics include: -What is sovereignty -What is sense-making, and why it is broken for so many people right now - How to diagnose corrupted sense-making, and what to do about it - Questions to ask yourself to increase your sovereignty - How to work on your sovereignty when you can’t trust what you perceive - The relationship between awakening and sovereignty - How Mike and Euvie see sovereignty playing a role in the future of the human experiment - Predictions about the emergence of new collective intelligences Future Thinkers Podcast A Course in Personal Evolution
September 02, 2019
Mette Böll - Cultivating Generative Social Fields
This week I'm speaking with Mette Böll (Boell). Mette is a biologist by training, specializing in the evolution of complex social systems, mammalian play behavior and philosophy of nature. Mette has a Ph.D. in organizational ethology from the Center for Semiotics, Aarhus University, and holds additional degrees in contemplative leadership and the philosophy and history of science. She uses her training in these diverse areas to research how moods and feelings are transmitted in social relations and how the resulting relational fields in turn shape the larger systems human beings are parts of, with a particular focus on education. We talk about the study of social fields, generative vs. degenerative fields, the relationship between fields and systems, how generative fields create ‘magical classrooms’, the characteristics of a generative field, how the combination of systems science and systems sensing can help educate people to respond to the complex challenges of our world, and what generative fields in the K-12 education setting looks like, and the need to empower young people and get out of their way. Mette also shares inspiring stories from the early prototypes of this work in the American education system. Center for Systems Awareness
August 26, 2019
Christopher Life - OneNation: An Omni-Win US Political Party
This week I'm speaking with Christopher Life. Christopher Life is the founder of OneNation, a new American political party dedicated to installing an all-win paradigm and rebirthing our democratic systems. Christopher and I talk about systems change as the next great social issue, the two party system as a hegemonic duopoly, OneNation as a generative alternative to the current system, omni-win vs win-lose, how the omni-win vision is the center of the shift needed to remake all the systems of society, win-lose thinking as a psycho-technology that is no longer adaptive, how empire uses polarization to maintain power, the need to create new collective intelligences and to experiment with new decision making systems, how OneNation will pull the disenfranchised and disengaged into a new political conversation, and the plan to make all-win cool and win-lose lame. Freakonomic Duopoly Episode Bill Moyers Stages of Social Change OneNation Party USA
August 12, 2019
Daniel Schmachtenberger - Utopia or Bust: Designing a Non Self-Terminating Civilization
This week I'm speaking with Daniel Schmachtenberger. Daniel is a founding member of The Consilience Project, aimed at improving public sensemaking and dialogue. The throughline of his interests has to do with ways of improving the health and development of individuals and society, with a virtuous relationship between the two as a goal. Towards these ends, he’s had particular interest in the topics of catastrophic and existential risk, civilization and institutional decay and collapse as well as progress, collective action problems, social organization theories, and the relevant domains in philosophy and science. Motivated by the belief that advancing collective intelligence and capacity is foundational to the integrity of any civilization, and necessary to address the unique risks we currently face given the intersection of globalization and exponential technology, he has spoken publicly on many of these topics, hoping to popularize and deepen important conversations and engage more people in working towards their solutions. Many of these can be found here. We talk about the current state of the phase shift, whether we are past the point of no return for social collapse, Daniel’s three generator functions of existential risk, the definition of an adequate social architecture that avoids existential risk, how technology creates asymmetric advantage that debases the planetary life support system, why we need to create technology that leads to ‘metastability’, the pollution of the epistemic commons, why we need to define problems in a comprehensive way where the solutions don’t create worse problems, the vows Daniel made as a teenager, what progress is being made at solving the generator functions of existential risk, the auto-poetic nature of trauma, and the necessity of a mature relationship between certainty and uncertainty.
August 05, 2019
State of the DAO Panel Discussion
This week I am joined by Danilo Vaz, Stratis Karad, Jocelyn, and Felipe Duarte to explore all things Decentralized Autonomous Organizations (DAOs). We talk about  what DAOs are and why they are significant, where the space is at (and what it’s evolving into), how DAOs might allow for teal/horizontal/distributed organizations to scale, what are some of the most exciting DAOs currently active, the need for wacky proposals, and more. Participants Danilo Vaz (@emergir_co) - Fascinated by everything Complexity related, from fungi mycelium, to cultural evolution, to distributed computer networks. He’s worked as a community manager at DAOstack during the project’s ICO. Co-host of DAOCast. Statis Karad (@stratiskarad) -  Passionate about free thought, free speech and free market. Marketing & bizdev at DAOstack, and co-host of DAOCast. Jocelyn ( - Artist interested in sociotechnical artifacts; her current work explores imagination processes, magic, and code. She works with electronic literature, installations, and performances within the contexts of decentralized organizations, female narratives, and the human love affair with the Internet. Felipe Duarte (@facilitator23) - Originally an artist and activist, his experience on the ground during the social upheavals of Brazil have shifted his reflections towards society and organizations. Participant in the Genesis Alpha DAO and to becoming the Organiser of DAOfest. Related Episodes Richard Bartlett - Occupy Wall Street as Bootstrapping Collective Intelligence Jordan Greenhall - Anti-Rivalry, QAnon, and SOCIs (Oh my!) Max Borders - The Coming Social Singularity Moritz Bierling - Metamodern Politics + Holochain = 🔥💞🌎🤸
July 29, 2019
Joe Edelman - Designing Systems for Human Flourishing
Joe Edelman is a philosopher, social scientist, designer, and founder of Human Systems, a global community for those redesigning institutions and social spaces so as to better support meaningful lives and human values. In this conversation we  discuss why designing systems in alignment with human values is the way forward for social transformation, the difference between advancing values and practicing values, the anti-rivalrous nature of values, how to name your values with the same specificity that you name your goals, why the breakdown of systems is a wonderful opportunity for redesign, the relationship between meaningfulness and values, and what this all has to do with the possibility of social collapse. Notes on the Show, Including the Referenced Political Compass with Bonnitta Roy, Jordan Hall, et all
July 22, 2019
Tom Murray - Wisdom Skills
In this conversation Tom Murray and I explore Tom’s model of ‘Wisdom Skills’. In this model Wisdom Skills are made up of both the movement of complexification and development (ascending), and the movement of simplicity and subtraction (descending).  We explore the relationship between simplicity and complexity in the development of wisdom, sort out some confusions about the relationship between spirituality and human development, why spiritual teachers ‘do bad things’, why development without deconstruction is problematic, why spirituality is more ‘down and in’ rather than ‘up and out’, how deconstruction releases complexity and opens possibility, why development is dangerous without spiritual clarity, and how this model allows us to talk bout spiritual realization without unnecessary metaphysical claims. To read a draft of Tom's work in progress on the "wisdom skills" material we discussed. send him an email at The title of the manuscript is "Metamodernism, Complexity, Simplicity, and Spirituality." The other paper we mentioned is "Knowing and Unknowing Reality: A Beginner's and Expert's Developmental Guide to Post-Metaphysical Thinking" (here) Tom's Wisdom Skills Model (image) and Progressive Summarization of his Metaphysics Paper Other links to Toms work include:  Tom's home page: A list of Tom's papers: The StageLens technology for developmental assessment:
July 16, 2019
Bayo Akomolafe - The Insurgency of the Invisible
Today I'm speaking with Bayo Akomolafe. Bayo is a an academic, poet and philosopher who dedicates his life to mediating between the spiritual and the scientific. He is the Executive Director and Chief Curator for The Emergence Network, and the author of ‘These Wilds Beyond our Fences: Letters to my Daughter on Humanity’s Search for Home‘. We talk about what emergence is and why it is such a relevant idea for our time, the scandal at the heart of modernity, why it's a good idea to be uncertain about the possibility of systems collapse, why the urgency of our times is an invitation to slow down, the problems with spiritual tourism, why identity politics can often seem so broken, how the social justice movement is mistakenly using modernist constructs of power, how inclusion can reinforce the structures of exploitation and oppression, and why we cannot ‘out-think the crisis’. Bayo's Profile on Emerge The 25 Billion Ton Biomass at the Bottom of the Ocean
July 08, 2019
Bonnitta Roy - Six Ways to Go Meta
Today on the show I'm speaking with Bonnitta Roy about her presentation 'Six Ways to Go Meta'. We cover such topics as what  it mean to ‘go meta’, why the anthropocene is driving humans to discover new ways of ‘going meta’, how deconstructing our experience through meditation creates a clean palette to experiment with new ways of going meta, how previous guests like Adam Robbert, Jordan Greenhall, Nora Bateson, and Rob Burbea fit into Bonnitta’s meta-meta-model, and why it’s vital that we create new educational forms that help create and discover new human minds. Six Ways to Go  Meta Presentation Danny J's New Single - Rob the Infirmary
July 01, 2019
Zak Stein - The Meta-Crisis is a Human Development Crisis: Education in a Time Between Worlds
Today's conversation is with Zak Stein. Zak is a writer, educator and futurist working to bring a greater sense of sanity and justice to education. This recording was made in person at Zak's house in Northern Vermont. We chat about why the meta-crisis is fundamentally an educational crisis, a metamodern vision for the future of education, the difference between education and schooling, how to build an education system that can prepare humans for an unknowable and rapidly changing future, the postmodern erosion of ‘teacherly authority’, the relationship between education, passion, curiosity, and eros, and the possibility of education becoming a collective movement of soul-making.  Previous episode with Zak Stein Education in a Time Between Worlds (Amazon Link)
June 24, 2019
Intermission with Both/And - Podcasting as a Spiritual Practice
An inside baseball podcast about podcasting with Jason Snyder and Jared Janes of the Both/And podcast. We chat about what we are seeing in the emerging [metamodern/metasystematic/metarational] subculture, skillful disagreement, and how podcasting can be a practice of personal growth and transformation. Jared and Jason's Favorite Episodes so far: Both/And #6 with Euvie Ivanova - Both/And #11 with David Collins -
June 13, 2019
Dr. Douglas Tataryn - Emotions in Meditation and Human Development
This week I'm speaking with Dr. Douglas Tataryn. Doug has created an elegant and effective system for emotional healing and understanding.  This work makes insights from years of study and practice as a clinical psychologist accessible to the everyone. In this conversation we will explore a simple technique for emotional clearing that you can begin practicing immediately, and look at how emotions play a role in meditation, human development, and cultural transformation. Doug and I discuss how emotions obstruct concentration in meditation practice, the 9 core feelings, the difference between feelings and emotions, how crying is part of the natural healing sequence of the emotional brain, the role of language in accessing our feelings, the role of emotions in moving from traditional to modern to postmodern developmental stages, a developmental assessment of the social justice warrior phenomenon, the difference between functional and dysfunctional postmodernism, and how to deal with the deep gunk of our psyche. List of 9 Core Feelings (Evernote) The 9 Core Feelings (Diagnostic) Bio-Emotive Meditation Retreat at the Monastic Academy (June 21-23)
May 20, 2019
Catherine McGee - Soulmaking in Collapse
My guest today is Catherine McGee. Catherine has been teaching Insight Meditation retreats internationally since 1999, and since 2014 has been collaborating with Rob Burbea in shaping and teaching the Soulmaking Dharma. In this conversation we explore how the Soulmaking Dharma can open up our relationship to the topic of collapse and possible human extinction. We talk about Catherine's experience participating in the Extinction Rebellion through the lens of the Soulmaking Dharma, the weaving together of justice and soul and beauty in a time of crisis, the eros-psyche-logos dynamic, the difference between suffering (dukkha) in the classical Buddhist context and in the Soulmaking Dharma, and the possibility of enchanting catastrophe. Catherine McGee : Key Ideas of a Soulmaking Dharma (Part 1 - The Why and What) - Catherine McGee : Key Ideas of a Soulmaking Dharma (Part 2 - The Eros-Psyche-Logos Dynamic) - Soulmaking Dharma Email List - Monastic Academy Circling Intensive -
May 13, 2019
Jeremy Johnson - Jean Gebser & Mutating Consciousness in the Anthropocene
Todays guest is Jeremy Johnson. Jeremy is the author of the new book 'Seeing Through the World: Jean Gebser and Integral Consciousness'. Jeremy is also the host of the wonderful Mutations podcast, and the editor of the anthology Mutations: Art, Consciousness, and the Anthropocene.   Together we explore Gebser’s idea of ‘origin’, the move from the non-perspectival to perspectival to aperspectival consciousness (aka integral), the way creative innovations emerge out of presence, Gebser’s relationship with metamodernism, the difficulty of trying to articulate anything beyond the mental structure of consciousness, how to experience the past and the future in the present, and feeling our way into the diaphanous nature of the anthropocene. Seeing Through the World (Amazon) Mutations Podcast Circling Intensive at the Monastic Academy
May 06, 2019
John Vervaeke - The Meaning Crisis
Today's guest is John Vervaeke, PhD. John is an award-winning lecturer at the University of Toronto in the departments of psychology, cognitive science and Buddhist psychology. John joins Emerge to discuss the meaning crisis, it's consequences, and how we might design ecologies of practice to chart a path to new vistas of meaningfulness. We cover: what is the meaning crisis, how does the meaning crisis intersect with the ecological and political crisis, how our consciousness prioritizes what is most meaningful out of the totality of perception and how much flexibility we have in adjusting and transforming what we find meaningful, why it’s problematic to ‘unbundle’ and decontextualize practices like mindfulness from a larger integrated ecology of practice, how everything from literacy to rationality to mindfulness could be considered a ‘psychotechnology’, what the highest leverage practices for resolving the meaning-crisis in our own lives, how to think about building the religions of the future, why new communities of practice ought to focus on process instead of personality, John’s own journey in amplifying the meaning in life, and how our bodies can function as ‘meaningfulness’ compasses in our lives. Awakening from the Meaning Crisis
April 29, 2019
Skinner Layne - Embracing Collapse: Transforming Tragedy into Meaningfulness
My guest today is Skinner Layne. Skinner is the founder of Exosphere, a learning & problem-solving community and startup laboratory. We talk about how collapse is woven into the DNA of our system, how those who grew up in the modern west are equivalent to trust fund babies, why marxism dies from cancer, fascism dies from heart attack and consumerism dies from diabetes, how Apple is the perfection of fascist production and marxist aesthetics, why preserving the status quo is unacceptable, how collapse is more like falling down a hill than falling off a cliff...and why it may be a good idea to head down the hill preemptively, before you are pushed.  Outro music by Danny J
April 22, 2019
Making Sense of Jem Bendell and Vinay Gupta with Bonnitta Roy
A short making sense episode with frequent guest of the show Bonnitta Roy. We have a chat about the recent episodes with Jem Bendell and Vinay Gupta, and how what new paths forward may lie in the wake of the collapse narrative.
April 18, 2019
Making Sense of Jem Bendell and Vinay Gupta with Peter Park
A short making sense episode with friend and fellow monastic Peter Park. We have a chat about the recent episodes with Jem Bendell and Vinay Gupta, and how the idea of collapse is playing out in our own lives.
April 15, 2019
Vinay Gupta - Waking Up in the Monster Factory (pt. 2)
This episode's guest is Vinay Gupta (@leashless). Vinay is the founder of Mattereum, the creator of the hexayurt, and part of the team that launched the Ethereum project. Vinay is also a deep spiritual practitioner, and in this two part episode we explore the intersection of awakening, social collapse, and the possibility of human extinction.  We talk about Vinay’s esoteric spiritual path and subsequent awakening to the planetary crisis, why we ought to abandon all causes except the avoidance of total human extinction, why our situation is not just a repackaged mythical eschatology, why the victors of global capitalism are becoming the new losers, why we live in a ‘monster factory’, the reality that poverty IS collapse, why love is not enough, why a UBI might be the best thing we can do to escape the worst impacts of collapse, Vinay’s critique of the idea of ‘consciousness revolution’ as a real solution to the problems of a world, the problem with the mindfulness and yoga movements in the West, why anything that’s not leading towards enlightenment is not spiritual practice, why Salvador Dali is a Buddha, what expression of awakening can serve in a planetary crisis, why grace is a form of ‘not giving a fuck’, how to get in touch with the hellish aspect of the world, and why we need to 'saw off' the 60s.  This is part two of a two part conversation.  Outro music by Danny J.
April 08, 2019
Vinay Gupta - Waking Up in the Monster Factory (pt. 1)
This episode's guest is Vinay Gupta (@leashless). Vinay is the founder of Mattereum, the creator of the hexayurt, and part of the team that launched the Ethereum project. Vinay is also a deep spiritual practitioner, and in this two part episode we explore the intersection of awakening, social collapse, and the possibility of human extinction. We talk about  Vinay’s esoteric spiritual path and subsequent awakening to the planetary crisis, why we ought to abandon all causes except the avoidance of total human extinction, why our situation is not just a repackaged mythical eschatology, why the victors of global capitalism are becoming the new losers, why we live in a ‘monster factory’, the reality that poverty IS collapse, why love is not enough, why a UBI might be the best thing we can do to escape the worst impacts of collapse, Vinay’s critique of the idea of ‘consciousness revolution’ as a real solution to the problems of a world, the problem with the mindfulness and yoga movements in the West, why anything that’s not leading towards enlightenment is not spiritual practice, why Salvador Dali is a Buddha, what expression of awakening can serve in a planetary crisis, why grace is a form of ‘not giving a fuck’, how to get in touch with the hellish aspect of the world, and why we need to 'saw off' the 60s. This is part one of a two part conversation. Outro music by Danny J.
April 01, 2019
Dr. Jem Bendell - The Meaning and Joy of Inevitable Social Collapse
Today I'm speaking with Dr. Jem Bendell. Jem exploded onto the internet with the release of his 'Deep Adaptation' paper, which has been downloaded hundreds of thousands of times. The paper makes a very persuasive argument for what Dr. Bendell calls 'Inevitable near term social collapse' due to climate change. In this conversation we talk about non-linear self-reinforcing negative feedback loops in climate systems, Dr. Bendell’s experience of grief in coming to terms with the reality of collapse, Extinction Rebellion as an expression of fierce love, the meaningfulness and joy on the other side of collapse acceptance, collapse as an invitation to face the reality of our own inevitable death, how to approach the idea of collapse in a helpful way, and whether the United States and Europe will escape the worst impacts as systems de-cohere. Deep Adaptation Paper Positive Deep Adaptation Facebook Group
March 25, 2019
Check-in & Update
No guest today, instead a short check-in and update about Emerge and the life of Daniel. 
March 18, 2019
David Fuller - Rebel Wisdom, The Intellectual Dark Web & The Future of Media
 Today's guest is David Fuller, founder of Rebel Wisdom.  We talk about Jordan Peterson, the inspiration (and synchronicities) behind the founding of Rebel Wisdom, David’s most recent thinking on what the teleology of the Intellectual Dark Web, the emerging worldview coming into being through distributed heterodox conversations, the significance of the James Damore Google Memo, the evolution of media towards non-ideological generative conversation, and how embodied practice support intersubjective sense-making. Rebel Wisdom YouTube Channel
March 11, 2019
Miki Kasthan - The Inseparability of Psychological and Social Transformation
In this episode I’m speaking with Miki Kashtan. Through her work with Nonviolent Communication, movement building, and organization design, Miki speaks into the intersection of social and psychological transformation with a rare blend of pragmatic heartfulness. We talk about how economic and cultural systems inform our psychology, why none of us can know what ‘human nature’ is, the necessity of communities of practice for those who seek to transform their consciousness, how to practice full spectrum nonviolence, the unsettling power of moral authority, and the central significance of connecting with and expressing our biological needs. The Fearless Heart (Miki's Blog)
March 04, 2019
Paul Krafel - The World Healing Game of Upward Spirals
My conversation today is with naturalist and author Paul Krafel. We talk about why you shouldn't go with the flow, how to discover opportunities for generative service in all domains of life, how to use multiple perspectives to see in '3D', the game of creating upward spirals, and how to observe the natural world in a way that discovers patterns & fit. Enjoy! Paul's book Roaming Upwards
February 25, 2019
Nick Jankel - Post-Identity Tribalism in Culture War 2.0
Nick Seneca Jankel is an author, professional speaker, leadership futurist, and philosopher. His recent book, Spiritual Atheism, reconciles spiritual and contemplative experience with science into a robust ‘human operating system’. I reached out to Nick after reading his recent article on medium called "Hacking Identity Politics To Save Our Species”, which we unpack in this conversation. We cover topics like the relationship between spiritual practice and social change, how to 'hack' identity politics, the responsibility of ‘integralists’ to intervene in cultural flashpoints, and the need for post-tribal tribes to create collaborative fellowship.
February 18, 2019
Jeremy Lent - Maps of Meaning for a World in Crisis
In this episode I'm speaking with Jeremy Lent. Jeremy is the author of 'The Patterning Instinct: A Cultural History of Humanity's Search for Meaning' and the found of the Liology Institute, which has the aim of fostering a worldview that will enable humanity to thrive sustainably on this planet. Jeremy and I chat about how our world is the product of the success of certain cognitive patterns, how we can change reality by changing our metaphors, what it means to become conscious of the meaning we make out of the world, and how we can adapt our own meaning-making structures to accord with the existential nature of the Anthropocene. Jeremy on the web: // Jeremy's Article on Yuval Harari
February 04, 2019
Robert MacNaughton - Learnings from the Life and Death of the Integral Center
In this conversation I’m speaking with Robert McNuaghten. Robert was the founder and executive director of the Integral Center in Boulder Colorado from it’s birth in 2013 until it’s recent closure at the end of 2018.   We chat about the shadow side of idealism, leadership and patriarchy, the essence of conservatism, the history of the Integral movement in Boulder, intersubjective reductionism, Robert’s concerns about the spread of authentic relating throughout the world, and how understanding Attachment Theory helps bring balance to relational practices. 
January 28, 2019
James Surwillo - Metamodern Leadership and Millennial Heroics
James Surwillo joins me in conversation this week to talk about his book 'Metamodern Leadership: A History of the Seven Values That Will Change the World'. We discuss the unique role of the millennial generation, evolving cultural value sets, the possibility of millennials being a ‘hero’ generation, Torbert’s seven stage model of leadership development, the need to master the game before you change the game (h/t Jordan Peterson), and conventional and post-conventional leadership.
January 21, 2019
Miles Bukiet - Monasteries of the Future
Miles Bukiet joins Emerge this week to talk about his paper ‘Monasteries of the Future’.   We talk about the role of monasteries in the emerging future, the cultural significance of monasteries as an institution that demonstrates alternative ways of being human, the radical difference deep practice can make to our experience of being alive, and the 'crisis of standards' affecting the contemplative field.  Read Monasteries of the Future The Monastic Academy A Day at the Monastic Academy (With Pictures) (Meta)Modern Monasticism with Peter Park
January 14, 2019
Ria Baeck - Emergent Collective Practice and Applied Presence
In this episode of Emerge I'm speaking with Ria Baeck. Ria is a visionary practitioner in the domain of group process, facilitation, and collaboration, having spent many decades discovering how to manifest collective potential in order to meet the complex challenges of our era. Ria and I talk about why you cannot go straight for the answer, the re-localization of sense-making, moving beyond mental consciousness, the limitlessness of Applied Presence, the nature of collective intelligence, the sacred responsibility of contributing our piece to the whole, reclaiming and integrating our animal nature, and conceptual shadow. Ria's Book Online
December 24, 2018
Joachim Stroh - Collective Sensemaking and Presence in Digital Spaces
On this episode of Emerge I'm speaking with Joachim Stroh. Joachim is the co-founder of Change Agents Worldwide and the creator of the Social Ledger -- a meta-protocol for creating cooperative digital spaces. We touch on topics such as collective sensemaking in digital spaces, how time spent on the internet can form memories (or not), achieving flow states in digital connection, Joachim's 'Social Ledger' as a meta-protocol for measuring social capital and participation, and new architectures of participation that resist authoritarianism. Joachim's Article on the Social Ledger
December 17, 2018
Jared Janes - Stream Entry, Philosophy and the Terror of Getting What You Want
In this episode I'm speaking with Jared Janes (@jaredjanes). Jared is the host of the Impactful Podcast, as well as a friend and off-air interlocuter. We share many interests in common, from meditation and philosophy to diet and productivity hacking. In this conversation, we chat about different models of stream entry, the lubricative nature of awakening, how the philosophical investigation of free will opens up the space for liberation, awakening through World of Warcraft, and the need to follow one's curiosity, even as it takes us outside of our comfortable affiliations. Impactful: Tribes
December 13, 2018
Gail Bradbrook - Extinction Rebellion
On this episode, I’m speaking with Gail Bradbrook. Gail is a founder of Extinction Rebellion, one of the most exciting political movements on the planet right now (IMO). Extinction Rebellion is a group that believes that time has run out to address the ecological crisis and that it is the right and duty of every citizen to rebel in order to compel the government to tell the truth and decarbonize the economy in as short a period as possible. The movement is growing exponentially in Europe, and has already shut down the city of London through direct action and civil disobedience. Together Gail and I talk about the past, present, and possible future of Extinction Rebellion. We cover such territory as the visionary and psychedelic origins of Extinction Rebellion, how to orient ourselves in the face of possible human extinction, how to balance urgency and trust in activism, and how Extinction Rebellion could use distributed organizational architectures to enable mass participation in this emerging movement. Extinction Rebellion International Allies email Extinction Symbol
December 11, 2018
Peter Park - (Meta)Modern Monasticism and Existential Risk
In this episode of Emerge I'm speaking with Peter Park. Peter is a teacher and Assistant Director at the Monastic Academy in Lowell, Vermont. Peter and I talk about what a 'modern monastery is', the choice between comfort and truth, the role of monastic style training in a time of existential risk, and Peter's experience combining contemplative practice and authentic relating in the context of a monastic community. Deep Adaptation & Systems Collapse Paper
December 03, 2018
Peter Limberg - Memetic Tribes, Culture War 2.0, and the Perils of Grey Pilling
In this episode, I'm speaking with Peter Limberg. Peter is the creator of the Intellectual Explorers Club in Toronto, CA as well as co-author of 'Memetic Tribes and Culture War 2.0', a recent medium article that has been very popular in my odd corner of the internet. In this conversation we chat about memeplexes, grey pills, radical agnosticism, Robert Anton Wilson, how to speak with confidence in the midst of uncertainty, authentic relating, anti-debates, and pragmatic tribal affiliations for post-tribal peoples. Enjoy the show! Memetic Tribes and Culture War 2.0 (article) Peter & Ronan on Alter Ego
November 26, 2018
Nora Bateson - Awakening Interdependence and Evolving Systems with Warm Data
Nora Bateson is a Filmmaker, writer, educator, lecturer and President of the International Bateson Institute. In this conversation we discuss how systems learn and evolve, the importance of moving between contexts, how our dreams of incremental change have failed, and the how system change will likely emerge from the liminal space between institutions.
November 19, 2018
John Michael Greer - The Kek Wars: How Chaos Magic Influenced the 2016 US Presidential Election
In this episode John Michael Greer and I discuss his 'Kek Wars' article series on how the Chans used magick to influence the 2016 elections. We talk about political campaigns as magical performance, 4chan as the collective unconscious of the internet, the lefts failure to recognize a politics of existential crises, the myth of progress, and the antidote to cosmic indifference. 🐙 The Kek Wars Part 1: Primer on Chaos Magick:
November 12, 2018
Zak Stein - A Metaphysics of Love for a Time Between Worlds
On this episode of Emerge I’m speaking with Zak Stein. Zak is a writer, educator, and futurist working to bring a greater sense of sanity and justice to education (and beyond). Zak joins me on the show to speak about his recent paper in the Integral Review titled Love in a Time Between Worlds: On the Metamodern “Return” to a Metaphysics of Eros. In addition to the paper, we talk about the antropocene and it’s relationship to the metamodern historical moment, why metaphysical questions are impossible to escape, and why those who bring coherence to these inquires will be stepping into the future in a profound way. If you’re enjoying the show there are at least three ways to show your support. You can: * Leave a review on iTunes or any other podcast surface. * Share episodes you enjoy on your social media, or with friends who you think might benefit from the conversation * Or by becoming a patron of the show by clicking on the link in the show description, or by going to and clicking on the very obvious button. Thanks everyone! Enjoy the show… Love in a Time Between Worlds (article) Zak’s Website
October 29, 2018
Adam Robbert - Breaking the Binary of Theory & Practice
In this conversation Adam Roberts (@knowledgeecology) and I explore the idea of philosophical inquiry as perceptual transformation. We talk about the relationship between conceptuality and perception, the contemplative practice that Descartes used to produce his philosophy, how to sort through the spiritual marketplace, and the meta-freedom that exploring our assumptions can open for us. If you enjoy this conversation I recommend you check out The Side View, Adam’s new project based on the ideas he shares in this episode. It just got started and it’s already home to a number of great articles and provocative podcast episodes. As always if you appreciate Emerge and are getting value from the conversations you’re listening to, I invite you to become a supporter. You can find a link in the show notes or you can go to and click on the very attractive purple button that reads ‘support this podcast’. The Side View
October 25, 2018
Terry Patten - Integral Theory & Metamodernism, Irony & Sincerity, and Why Voting Matters
In this conversation, I’m speaking with Terry Patten. Terry is a leading voice in the integral movement as an author, speaker, and teacher focusing on the marriage of personal and political transformation. We talk about the relationship between Integral Theory and Metamodernism, the use and misuse of irony & sincerity, and why we should vote, even if it’s statistically meaningless. Terry is a true evolutionary activist and it’s a real pleasure to have him on the show. And if you appreciate where Terry is coming from I highly encourage you to check out his most recent book, ‘A New Republic of Heart: An Ethos for Revolutionaries’. It’s a wonderful read, and Terry has just a few weeks ago begun new non-profit based on the ideas of the text. It’s a very inspiring vision that I expect listeners of this show will resonate with. If you’re curious to learn more you can check out the link below. And If you’re enjoying Emerge and you’d like to express your appreciation you can check the show description for a link to become a supporter or can share the show with your friends so that more people are included in these valuable conversations. Thanks y’all, and enjoy the show. ❤️❤️ Terry’s personal website: Terry’s new non-profit based on a New Republic of Heart
October 22, 2018
Richard Bartlett - Occupy Wall Street as Bootstrapping Collective Intelligence
In this conversation, I speak with Richard Dennis Bartlett. Richard is an author, organizational consultant, and founder of Loomio and The Hum, as well as a member of Enspiral network. He and I share an identity as former participants in Occupy Wall Street, me in NYC and Richard in New Zealand. Together we reflect on whether Occupy Wall Street could be seen as a ‘bootstrapped’ collective intelligence, the rise of the vTaiwan movement and digital governance, and the need to leverage both social and digital technology together to create robust expressions of benevolent collective intelligence. The Hum Enspiral Loomio Richard on Medium
October 18, 2018
Indra Adnan - Catalyzing a Networked Politics with The Alternative UK
On this episode of Emerge I’m speaking with Indra Adnan. Indra is the ‘co-initiator’ of the Alternative UK, a new political platform aiming to transform politics in the United Kingdom. We talk about the Alternative’s approach to political change, her development of a transformative movement building event that Indra calls a ‘Collaboratory’, and the new networked story of collective evolution that the Alternative is helping to catalyze. Enjoy! The Alternative UK The Alternative UK + Holochain
October 15, 2018
Jake Vartanian - Native: A Crypto Platform for Prosperous Communities
On this episode of Emerge I’m speaking with Jake Vartanian. Jake is the founder of Native, a platform for communities to create their own economic architecture using cryptocurrency. This is a project, like DAOStack, Holochain, or Colony, that is exploring the transition into an anti-rivalrous future that Jordan Greenhal and I spoke about in the last episode of Emerge. I recommend listening to that conversation first, as it will help you understand the significance of what Native is offering. And, unlike many other projects in this space Native is now live, and you can play with it yourself at
October 11, 2018
Jordan Greenhall - Anti-Rivalry, QAnon, and SOCIs (Oh my!)
In this conversation, Jordan Greenhall and I talk about Rivalrous and Anti-Rivalrous dynamics, the rise of self-organizing collective intelligences (SOCIs), and how QAnon might be an early example of the future of collective sense-making. "We are currently undergoing a major transition from a world dominated by the forces of scarcity to a world dominated by the forces of abundance. This is a once in a thousand-year level (or larger) transition and must be understood in that context." The Rivalrous and Anti-Rivalrous (Video) Making Sense of QAnon (Article)
October 08, 2018
Joe Brewer - State of the Collapse
In this episode, I speak with Joe Brewer about the on-going collapse of our planetary system, the emotional and psychological difficulties of reckoning with this reality, and how we can each become stewards for what comes next.
October 04, 2018
Bonnitta Roy - A Source Code Analysis of Collective Action 💞
In this episode of Emerge, Bonnitta Roy and I explore a Source Code analysis of Collective Action. This is the third and final conversation in our three episode arc together. We cover such topics as why having a liquid identity makes you a better team player, the core skills for participating in collective actions, and how to create ritual spaces that facilitate the emergence of new shared identities. This episode will be well worth your time if you ever try to do things with others. That means you, human! 😜 This episode marks the end of Season Two of Emerge; I'll be taking a short break and be back with new episodes in early October. 🙏
September 10, 2018
Rob Burbea - Meditation Fantasies & The Soulmaking Dharma
In this conversation with meditation teacher and author Rob Burbea we discuss the role of fantasy in meditation, the purpose of what Rob calls the 'Soulmaking Dharma' and some common traps that can obstruct our connection with beauty on the contemplative path. This was the first conversation I had with Rob (there are two more you can listen to in the Emerge podcast stream). For various reasons I decided not to release it immediately after we recorded it, feeling that the subsequent conversations did a better job of communicating what I wanted to communicate. There were also some nasty recording problems that made it difficult at times for the conversation to be fluid and flowing. In any case this is a lovely coversation and I hope you enjoy! 🙏
September 03, 2018
Bonnitta Roy - A Source Code Analysis of Trust 🤝
In this conversation, Bonnitta Roy and I explore what trust means within the context of complex and unpredictable systems. What is trust? How do we act in ways that amplify trust? And what does all this tell us about the vision for a 'trustless' future coming out of the Blockchain world? And why is it that sometimes highly trustworthy people are also the most unpredictable? 🤔 More notes (including the graphic we talk about during the show):
August 31, 2018
Bonnitta Roy - A Source Code Analysis of Power 💪
In this first in a set of three conversations, Bonnitta Roy and I talk about a Source Code Analysis of the concept of Power. We explore how to speak and think about power in a way that releases complexity, cuts through confusion, and enables useful conversations. The hallmark of this approach is a commitment to unpacking hidden assumptions in order to identify a conceptualization (Bonnitta calls this a 'conceptual prime') that avoids the confusions and traps that much of our current culture is trapped in. Leveraging this approach in my own life has led to a significant upgrade to the quality of my communication, and I'm glad to share it with you. This is part one of a three-part series. Coming in the next week Bonnitta and I will be applying the same process to the ideas of 'Trust' and 'Collective Action'. Stay tuned and enjoy! ❤️ Bonnita’s Pre-show Video Breakdown
August 27, 2018
Vincent Horn - What Wants to Emerge Now?
In this episode Vincent Horn and I speak on behalf of what wants to emerge now. We discuss the battle for our attention, the relationship between the psychological and the political, the magic of Trump and personal responsibility in the attention economy. Enjoy! ❤️
August 20, 2018
Max Borders - The Coming Social Singularity
This conversation is with Max Borders, author of 'The Social Singularity: How decentralization will allow us to transcend politics, create global prosperity, and avoid the robot apocalypse'. We explore topics such as psychedelics, why voting doesn't matter, decentralized systems, Holochain, the relationship between personal transformation and social transformation and bottom-up alternatives to a UBI. Enjoy! 🚀 DISC as a UBI Alternative The Social Singularity On Amazon
August 13, 2018
Rob Burbea Responds
In this episode, Rob Burbea and I have a conversation responding to questions, concerns, and feedback arising our of our first conversation (released last week). The feedback was taken from the /r/streamentry sub-reddit. 🌊 Original /r/streamentry thread
August 08, 2018
Moritz Bierling - Metamodern Politics + Holochain = 🔥💞🌎🤸
What do you get when you combine an emerging vision of politics with new expressive capacities in human coordination? Humanity may be about to find out... In this episode of Emerge I’m speaking with Moritz Bierling. Moritz is the "Chief Catalyst" at Holo, a project of Holochain, as well as a Senior Strategist at Exosphere. In this conversation, we explore anti-fragile education, the emerging economic niche of currency design, and the fascinating symmetries between Metamodern Politics and Holochain. Enjoy ❤️ Holochain Capacity Shift Presentation Arthur Brock Short Video Ceptr Revelations (Pre-Release) Moritz & Skinner on the School Sucks Podcast
August 06, 2018
Stephen Reid - Psychedelic Renaissance
Stephen Reid and his co-conspirators at The UK Psychedelic Society are pioneering a contemporary re-imagining of the ancient art of facilitating transformational experiences using entheogenic substances. In this episode, Stephen and I discuss metamodernism, psychedelics (obv), and what we're going to do with all these empty churches. 💒 🤔 Psychedelic Experience Retreats Recommended Mix Tape
July 30, 2018
Jordan Greenhall & Bonnitta Roy - After Jordan Peterson
In this particularly liminal episode of Emerge Bonnitta Roy, Jordan Greenhall, and I attempt to generate some actionable clarity in response to a recent video critiquing Jordan Peterson. You'll get a sense for the gifts that Jordan Peterson has brought to our cultural landscape, as well as how we can take the next step into new (and less problematic) horizons. 🌅 Enjoy! Alter Ego Video
July 26, 2018
Rob Burbea - A Spiritual Paradigm for The Infinite Game
In this episode of Emerge, I speak with Rob Burbea about a new spiritual paradigm that he calls the 'Imaginal' and the 'Soulmaking Dharma'. Rob shares his creative process of journeying to the furthermost reaches of human consciousness and coming back with a new and profound vision of human experience and spirituality. 🙏 Enjoy! 😘 My companion article to this episode: Rob on Dharma Seed Second Brain Notes:
July 23, 2018
Ronan Harrington - The Praxis of Metamodern Political Change
A conversation with Ronan Harington about the nitty gritty praxis of systems change, the realities of the emerging metamodern subculture, and some of the real-life joys and sorrows of trying to do this radical work, and what it means to take on leadership in the midst of complexity. May this podcast episode be a light for all those attempting to transform the struggle of suffering into liberated play. 🙏 More Notes:
July 16, 2018
Making Sense of Holochain
Ethan and Daniel attempt to make sense of the Holochain episode with Ferananda Ibarra.
July 15, 2018
Ferananda Ibarra - WTF is Holochain?!
This week my guest is Ferananda Ibarra. Ferananda is internationally recognized in the fields of collective intelligence and the next economy. The center of her work is consciousness evolution of social systems, new social DNA and the processes and tools that support it. She now serves on the leadership team of the Holochain project. We talk about what Holochain is, the deep thinking that went into it, how it's architecture is a form of biomimicry, and how it could lead to a radically new level of collective intelligence and human thriving. Enjoy! Show Notes
July 09, 2018
Hanzi Freinacht - The Six Metamodern Political Strategies (pt. 2)
Part 2 of my conversation with Hanzi Freinacht on the six strategic forms of a metamodern politics. Sign up for the Infinite Clues Newsletter Second Brain Notes on Hanzi 🙏
June 29, 2018
Making Sense of Hanzi (pt. 1)
Ethan and Daniel have a conversation about part one of the episode with Hanzi Freinacht.
June 26, 2018
Hanzi Freinacht - Towards a Metamodern Politics (pt. 1)
A conversation with Hanzi Freinacht, the author of 'The Listening Society: A Metamodern Guide to Politics'. This episode is part one of a two part series. For more about metamodernism and Hanzi's work check out - Hanzi's blog and home on the web.
June 26, 2018
Making Sense of the Bonnitta Roy Episode
Ethan and Daniel make sense of the Bonnitta Roy episode, which you can find here:
May 30, 2018
Where Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, and Ezra Klein Go Wrong
In this episode of Emerge I speak with Bonnitta Roy. Bonnitta is the founding principle of Alderlore Insight Center, a non-profit adult learning center focused on practices that support emerging wisdom. She teaches a Masters program in Consciousness Studies at The Graduate Institute. She is also founding associate of APP-AI whose mission is to bring open participation into the workplace. You can read her writing on the Open Participatory Organization at We speak about: - How to have conversations across paradigms - Problems inherent in meta-perspectives - Why Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, and Ezra Klein fail to have generative and productive conversations (and how we can benefit from listening) - How to address the underlying dynamics of identity politics
May 25, 2018
Making Sense of the Darren Silver Episode
Ethan and Daniel talk about the most recent episode of Emerge with Darren Silver.
May 17, 2018
Darren Silver - Storying Our Way to a Sacred World
How do we speak in a way that re-enchants the world? That invites a more beautiful experience of life? This conversation speaks to those questions, and more. Darren Silver is a rite of passage guide, life-coach, ceremonialist, and an innovative educator. His commitment to guiding youth and adults through initiatory experiences was birthed from more than a decade of personal experience and inquiry into the relationship with soul, the natural world, and community. Darren holds a Masters in the Mythology of Initiation, has traveled extensively internationally, and has studied with elders worldwide. You can find him at
May 17, 2018
Making Sense of the Jordan Greenhall Episode
Ethan and Daniel have a sense-making conversation about the Jordan Greenhall episode of Emerge.
April 18, 2018
Jordan Greenhall - Sovereignty, Resonance, and Liminality
In order to enjoy this episode of Emerge you will need to be familiar with Jordan Greenhall's model of Sovereignty. Do not venture into this episode without checking out some or all of the resources listed below or you will likely feel lost and confused. * * * * Boyd’s OODA Loop
April 17, 2018
Experiments in Sense-Making #1: Beyond Expertise
Ethan and Daniel attempt to make sense of some of the topics discussed on recent episodes of Emerge. This episode will make most sense if you listen first to the recent episode with Melissa Michaels and have at least some familiarity with Jordan Greenhall's model of Sovereignty. Melissa Michaels Interview on Emerge Jordan Greenhall on Sovereignty
April 04, 2018
Emerge 010: "A More Beautiful Question" Warren Berger
On this episode of Emerge my guest is Warren Berger. Warren is the author of the book ‘A More Beautiful Question’. In this conversation we talk about the nature and importance of questioning, what keeps us from maintaining our child-like curiosity as we age, the danger of relying on expert advice, and how to find the important life-questions that Google can’t answer. Enjoy!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 009: "Bridging Technology And Consciousness" Adam Curry
In this episode of Emerge I speak with Adam Curry. Adam is an inventor and tech entrepreneur in San Francisco. His most recent work is an application called Entangled, which he refers to as the SETI of consciousness research. In this episode we discuss the informational nature of consciousness, how materialism is our cultures metaphysics, and whether we can use collective consciousness to predict Earthquakes. Enjoy the show!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 008: "Emergent Creativity" Tiago Forte
On this episode of Emerge, I speak with Tiago Forte. Tiago is the founder of Forte Labs, a productivity training and consulting firm in the bay area. He specializes in helping organizations and individuals adopt an approach to productivity that is both systematic and human centered. In this conversation, we speak about using design thinking for individual improvement and empowerment, how to harness chaos and emergence for personal creativity, and the changing nature of knowledge work. Enjoy the show!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 007: "The Smog Of Racism" Alison Cohen
On this Episode of Emerge I speak with Alison Cohen. Alison works as an instructional coach for public high school teachers and as a mindfulness educator for schools and social service organizations. Alison focuses on the interconnections between mindfulness and bias awareness and reduction. In this episode we speak about how mindfulness can disrupt the school to prison pipeline, the subtleties of implicit bias and cultural conditioning, and the nature of embodied racism. Enjoy the show!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 005: "Trust And Self-Organizing Systems" Christina Bowen
In this episode of emerge I speak with Christina Bowen. Christina is a knowledge ecologist working on such topics as collective intelligence, global warming, and systems theory. In this conversation we talk about the relationship between trust and collective intelligence, how to solve wicked problems , and the nature of self-organization. Please enjoy this conversation with knowledge ecologist Christina Bowen!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 004: Taylor Pearson "The End of Jobs"
Taylor Pearson joins me for this episode of Emerge. Taylor is an entrepreneur and author of the book ‘The End of Jobs’, an account of the changing nature of our economy and how to re-imagine your relationship to work for more freedom, meaning and wealth. In this show we talk about what jobs are and why they’re ending, the evolution of work, the power of negative visualization, and why now is the best time in human history to make the jump into entrepreneurship.
March 15, 2018
Emerge 003: Scott Santen "Basic Income"
Today we have on the show Scott Santens. Scott is a writer and advocate of what’s known as a basic guaranteed income. In this episode we go over the basics of basic income as well as some of the philosophical and cultural questions that arise when considering such a radical policy. Enjoy!
March 15, 2018
Emerge 002: Chris Dancy "Smartphone Loneliness"
This episode's guest is Chris Dancy. Chris has been called “the most connected human on earth” and has been featured on Fox News, NPR, BBC, TechCrunch, Mashable, and Wired, among others. He is a contemplative platform designer, artist, philosopher and writer. We talked about what it takes to design technology that promotes human well-being, the nature and cause of distraction and loneliness, the changing landscape of work, and how to survive a systemic collapse, without hoarding bullets.
March 15, 2018
Emerge 001: David Loy "A World Between Stories"
The first guest on Emerge is author, philosopher and activist David Loy. David and I first met at the Occupy Boulder General Assembly and our relationship grew from there. David work sits at the intersection of contemplative wisdom and social justice, making him a perfect first guest for Emerge. In this episode we discuss the ways stories limit and liberate us, the symptoms of living in a world between stories, the nature of the (7+ billion) new stories, the difficulty of acting in integrity with what you know is true, and how to find the meaning of your life. Enjoy! NOTE: Please forgive the strange audio glitches in the interview. The content of this interview is still awesome. :)
March 15, 2018