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Growing Down: A Progressive Integral Podcast

Growing Down: A Progressive Integral Podcast

By Ryan Nakade, Jeremy Johnson, Matt Hudkins
Co-hosts Ryan, Matt and Jeremy explore the possibility of aligning progressive culture--the new "radical majority"--with integral philosophy and metamodern politics.
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MMT and the Politics of Care w/ Andres Bernal

Growing Down: A Progressive Integral Podcast

Healing and Wholeness Through and Beyond Racial Identity, ft. Ashby Goodrum & Brad Kershner
Brad Kershner is a school leader and independent scholar, and the author of Understanding Educational Complexity: Integrating Practices and Perspectives for 21st Century Leadership. His research, teaching, and writing cover a wide range of interdependent topics, including education, leadership, parenting, race, technology, metamodernism, integral theory, meditation, complexity, and developmental psychology. You can learn more about his work and access recordings of his guided meditations on Patreon. ashby goodrum (preferred pronouns: they/we/us) works as an advanced practice nurse in primary and maternity care settings with significant experience as a bedside nurse/psychopomp and in midwifery. Some of their research and clinical interests include gender affirming care, birth equity, palliative care, cultural trauma and healing centered engagement, and transformative justice. ashby lives in Portland, Oregon which rests on traditional village sites of multiple indigenous tribes – such as the Multnomah, Clackamas, and Tualatin – who were among the land's first human caretakers. Books mentioned:  Thomas Hubl - Healing Collective Trauma Karen and Barbara Fields - Racecraft ashby mentioned: Isabel Wilkerson - Caste Resmaa Menakem - My Grandmother's Hands also: Danielle Allen, Anthony Appiah, Mariame Kaba could also add: Albert Murray - Omni-Americans Carlos Hoyt - The Arc of a Bad Idea For a deeper understanding of transgenerational trauma (a reading list): Mariame Kaba and  other transformative justice resources Michael Yellow Bird expert on neurodecolonization and indigenous mindfulness Karen Murphy explores how to prepare the way for civic healing Ruha Benjamin on “New Jim Code" - range of discriminatory designs that encode inequity Ruth Wilson Gilmore on racial capitalism Robin D.G. Kelley  on how capitalism has been racial from the beginning Edward E. Baptist, author of The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism David R. Williams on how racism makes us sick "How to Unlearn Racism" Scientific American article Psychology of Radical Healing Syllabus ReRooted Podcast with Francesca M. Maximé Maia Szalavitz on addiction as a learning disorder Sarah Peyton, facilitator and neuroscience educator bell hooks, groundbreaking cultural critic and author
December 2, 2020
Talking the Future of the Left ft. Ben Burgis
In this episode we talk with Ben Burgis. Ben is a philosophy instructor at Georgia State University Perimeter College, a Jacobin columnist, and the host of the “Give Them An Argument” podcast and YouTube show. He is also the author of Give Them an Argument: Logic for the Left and the forthcoming Canceling Comedians While the World Burns: A Critique of the Contemporary Left. // // // GTAA YouTube channel: #LeftisBest #CosmopolitanSocialism #Labor
October 22, 2020
MMT and the Politics of Care w/ Andres Bernal
Andres Bernal returns to Growing Down to discuss the current political landscape and how the principles of MMT can create a new framework for how we view money. Integral Politics advocates for a new paradigm that transcends the left/right binary. What might a new society look like if the conversation shifted from "How are you going to pay for it?" to "How can we create a flourishing society?" 
August 24, 2020
20. Subtle Activism ft. David Nicol
Author David Nicol joins the GD podcast to discuss his book, Subtle Activism: The Inner Dimension of Social and Planetary Transformation, and the important role subtle activist can play for the local and global challenges of the meta-crisis. About Subtle Activism: "Can awakened consciousness contribute to social change and, if so, how? David Nicol introduces the concept of "subtle activism to describe the use of consciousness-based practices like meditation and prayer to support collective transformation, such as global meditation directed toward peaceful resolution of a conflict. Subtle activism represents a bridge between the consciousness movement and the movements for peace, environmental sustainability, and social justice. It is not a substitute for physical action but rather a potentially crucial component of a more integrated approach to social chance."  Learn more about David at Earth Rising Credits: Featured Intro/Outro Track "Nobita" by Smith the Mister | Follow GD on Twitter: Jeremy //  Matt //  Ryan
August 15, 2020
19. Talking Metamodern Politics ft. Hanzi Freinacht
Growing Down podcast talks with Hanzi Freinacht. Hanzi is a political philosopher, historian and sociologist, author of ‘The Listening Society’, ‘Nordic Ideology’ and the upcoming books ‘The 6 Hidden Patterns of History’ and ‘Outcompeting Capitalism’.  In this discussion we explore constructive ways out of hyper-polarization, Hanzi's metamodernism and its relationship to an integral left or an integral 'cosmopolitan socialism',  and the politics of a regenerative future. | Subscribe to Growing Down's new YouTube Channel. Follow GD on Twitter:  #Metamodernism #IntegralTheory #DevelopmentalPolitics
August 13, 2020
Michael Brooks Tribute - Towards an Integralist Cosmopolitan Socialism
Jeremy Johnson is joined by Ryan Nakade, Brent Cooper, Matthew T. Segall, Brad Kershner and Layman Pascal to honor the memory Michael Brooks  (1983-2020) and discuss his contributions to integrative thinking in politics, cosmopolitan socialism, and where we go from here in solidarity. Recorded on 7/25/20. Watch the YouTube livestream of this talk. The struggle continues. #LeftisBest. #RestinPower. Show notes: Follow and support TMBS / TMBS Patreon / Against the Web by Michael Brooks / Jacobin's Michael Brooks Tribute / Featured Intro/Outro & Track "Nobita" by Smith the Mister 
August 3, 2020
Addiction: America's Dark Night of the Soul w/ John Dupuy
John Dupuy, the author of Integral Recovery, reflects on how politics and addiction intersect. As a country, we may be experiencing a dark night of the soul. The opioid crisis highlights a wound in our country that we must be brave enough to face. Can an integral practice provide a clue to addicts and non-addicts alike to how we can flourish into our best self, community and country? 
July 30, 2020
The New Bottom Line w/ Michael Lerner
Class is in session! The co-hosts of Growing Down sit front row as Rabbi Michael Lerner shares insights from his new book Revolutionary Love and his rich history of activism for social rights. We were honored to be in the audience and we hope you feel the same.  Excerpt from Revoltionary Love: "We seek a new bottom line that judges our institutions, our economy, our political lives, our legal system, our cultural institutions, our educational system, and every aspect of our society as productive, efficient, or rational to the extent that they maximize our human capacities to be loving, generous, and caring toward each other and the Earth, ethically and environmentally responsible, and committed to social, economic, and environmental justice; and to the extent to which they promote joy, playfulness, compassion and empathy, self-acceptance, humor, and aesthetic creativity, health and thanksgiving for life in all its forms, love of learning science and literature, repentance and forgiveness, treatment of all human beings as embodiments of the sacred and not just instrumentally as means to our own ends, and a response to the universe and our planet Earth that is filled with awe, wonder, and radical amazement (rather than seeing them only as "resources" to fill human needs). " -Rabbi Michael Lerner
July 30, 2020
The National Popular Vote w/ Eileen Reavey
Eileen Reavey of the National Popular Vote campaign joins co-hosts Ryan and Matt to discuss the history of the electoral college and the movement to create an interstate compact that would guarantee the presidency to the candidate who receives the the most popular votes. Join us to discussion its importance to democratization politics. 
July 30, 2020
The Ecosattva Path ft. David Loy
In this episode of Growing Down, David Loy, Buddhist teacher and author, shares his views on how Buddhist teachings can be applied to the spiritual and ecological crises of today's age. He advocates for a dual activism for the modern Boddhisatva, or Ecosattva: one of spiritual practice and social engagement. Can Buddhism provide an insight to integral politics by shifting the narrative from "good vs. evil" to one of "delusion vs. "awakening"? Please join us for this wonderful discussion.  You can find David Loy's work at:
July 15, 2020
#12. On the Way to an Integral Culture ft. Stephanie Lepp
In this episode of Growing Down, Matt, Ryan and Jeremy are joined by Stephanie Lepp. What happens when we take conceptual tools like Integral Theory, or metamodernism, and use them to, well, grow down? To create, engage with--make culture?    Stephanie does just that. She is the host of the podcast show Reckonings and the YouTube series Infinite Lunchbox. Together we explore her inspiration behind these shows, navigating the culture wars, how Youtubers like Contrapoints (Natalie Wynn) and journalists like Krystal Ball (The Hill) are arguably integral thinkers, and media strategies for (integrally) engaging our present culture of hyper-fragmentation.    Reckonings:   Infinite Lunchbox:   Uncanceling Contrapoints:   Steph's next appearance on a Growing Down panel episode:   Follow Stephanie on Twitter:
June 24, 2020
#11: Prepositional Theology ft. Bruce Alderman
The Growing Down podcast is honored to be joined by Bruce Alderman. Bruce is an adjunct faculty in the College of Psychology at John F. Kennedy University (JFKU). He received his master’s degree in Integral Psychology, with an emphasis on Transpersonal Counseling Psychology, from JFKU in 2005. Bruce is the founder of Integral Stage, a new YouTube and podcast series featuring conversations integral thinkers and media creators.    More about Bruce:  Publications:   Alderman, B. (2018). Sophia speaks: An integral grammar of philosophy. In S. Esbjörn-Hargens & M. Schwartz (Eds.), Dancing with Sophia: Integral philosophy on the verge. Albany, NY: SUNY.   Integral Stage:  Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality: The Integral Stage:
June 24, 2020
#10. Integral Justice and Black Leadership ft. David Hartful Jr
In this episode, the Growing Down podcast interviews David Hartful Jr., to talk about the protests and riots erupting in America, following the murder of George Floyd by police, from the perspective of Integral Theory and Spiral Dynamics. David is a researcher and founder of Black Leadership Analysis, (, which explores leadership practices in black communities through Spiral Dynamics, Integral Theory, and practices of self-realization.    David’s YouTube channel:   Dr Zenju Earthlyn Manuel:   Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar:
June 22, 2020
#9. What’s next, integrations, and ideal political near-futures
Growing Down co-hosts percolate recent interviews and attempt to integrate their diverse meanings (from changing public perception around more creation, MMT, evolving value systems, and other themes that have emerged on the show).
May 16, 2020
#8. Reclaiming the Power of Money Creation ft. Rev. Delman Coates
In this episode, the Growing Down podcast is deeply honored to interview Rev. Delman Coates on reclaiming the power of money creation, the integral connection between liberation theology, social justice, and spiritual traditions, and how we can transform the public imagination around money.  Dr. Delman Coates has served as Senior Pastor of Mt. Ennon Baptist Church in Clinton, Maryland for over 16 years. Under his leadership, the church has been recognized as one of the fastest growing congregations in the country and now has over 15,000 members. Delman is the founder of the Our Money Campaign. He has published several articles and has also been featured on a number of news outlets including MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, VH1, and The New York Times.  He has a Ph.D. in New Testament and Early Christianity from Columbia University as well as Master of Philosophy in Religion from Columbia University, a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School and a Bachelors in Religion from Morehouse College. More show notes:  Follow Rev. Coates on Twitter The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton Transformational Policies and MMT ft. Andres Bernal (relevant episode)
May 8, 2020
#7. Do Our Models Get in the Way? ft. Edward Berge
In this episode we are joined by Edward Berge, an Integral Theory writer and researcher and founder of the Proactive and Progressive Populism blog. Session Notes: On Integral Review:  ‘Inter-Bridging’ Bridges and Bridging as Metaphors for ‘syn-integrality’ in Organization Studies and Practice “Do our models get in the way?”  "Hier(an)archical synplexity"
April 29, 2020
#6. Transformational Policies and MMT ft. Andrés Bernal
In this episode of Growing Down podcast we are joined by Andrés Bernal.   Andrés resides in New York City where he is a Lecturer of Urban Studies at CUNY Queens College and Doctoral student at The New School For Public Engagement, Division of Policy Management and Environment. His research focuses on the Green New Deal as a site of political communication and policy analysis. Andrés is a leading voice and proponent associated with the heterodox school of economic thought known as Modern Monetary Theory.    Show Notes: Learn more about Andrés:  Twitter: 
April 22, 2020
#5. The Emergentsia and the Teal New Deal ft. Brent Cooper
In episode 5 of Growing Down podcast, we are joined by metamodern researcher and political sociologist Brent Cooper. Who are the Emergentsia? Brent talks about his popular Emerge series (read Part 1 here:, how he came to become a metamodern researcher, and what communities that make up the Emergentsia can do to stay engaged and literate in transformational politics (like the integral community's "Teal New Deal").  Show notes: Follow Brent on Twitter: The Abs-Tract Organization: Read more of Brent's essays on Medium:
April 14, 2020
#4. Growing Down into Spirit, ft. Paul Smith, Luke Healy
In this episode, Matt, Ryan and Jeremy are joined by guests Paul Smith and Luke Healy of the Integral Christian Network to explore the connections between religion, spirituality, and the politics of growing down. Paul Smith is the author of Integral Christianity: The Spirit's Call to Evolve. Paul and Luke are the co-founders of the Integral Christian Network, a global community seeking to co-create "the Christianity of the future," through participatory mystical  practice through WeSpace groups and individually. Join the Growing Down podcast as we explore the intersections of spirit, soul, and the polis. Show notes: Paul Smith's Homepage, Is Your God Big Enough? Close Enough? You Enough? by Paul Smith, All the World an Icon, Tom Cheetham, Re-Visioning Psychology, James Hillman, Revisioning Transpersonal Theory: A Participatory Vision of Human Spirituality, Jorge Ferrer.
April 6, 2020
#3. Developmental Politics ft. Steve McIntosh [Interview Series]
In this episode, the Growing Down team is joined by our first first guest, integral philosopher Steve McIntosh, to explore how America can overcome hyperpolarization. Steve McIntosh is the author of the recently published Developmental Politics: How America Can Grow into a Better Version of Itself (2020). He is the president and co-founder of the Institute for Cultural Evolution think tank, as well as the author of several books on integral philosophy. Steve's work has been featured on NPR, The Daily Beast, Real Clear Politics, The Hill, The National Journal, and in a wide variety of other media.  Steve's homepage Follow Steve McIntosh on Twitter Take the Portrait of the Good character exercise Steve references in this episode Read "Polarization is more of a cultural problem than a political one" on The Fulcrum
March 30, 2020
#2. Coronanomics
In this episode Matt, Ryan, and Jeremy process the COVID-19 epidemic, the corporate bail-out and further meditations on how they'd each like to see the New Left take an "integral turn." The Populist's Guide to 2020: A New Right and New Left are Rising Next Republic: The Rise of a New Radical Majority As Congress Pushes a $2 Trillion Stimulus Package, the “How Will You Pay For It?” Question Is Tossed in the Trash
March 28, 2020
#1. Introducing the Podcast
Welcome to Growing Down! Co-hosts Ryan, Matt and Jeremy explore the possibility of aligning progressive culture--the new "radical majority"--with integral philosophy and metamodern politics.  Among the diverse topics we cover, we explore: What "Growing Down" means to each of us How the New Left and the New Right are both populist What integral theory and integral philosophy can do in this new phase of cultural evolution What integral philosopher Jean Gebser offers to this moment of history Metamodernism and existential politics Bruno Latour on the shift from modernity's globalization to the ecological politics of the Terrestrial James Hillman and the need for soul psychology The need and the meaning for "soul" in progressive culture as a counter to the IDW References: TMBS (The Michael Brooks Show) The Populist's Guide to 2020 Nordic Ideology and Metamodernism Jean Gebser and Ever-Present Origin Zak Stein's Education in a Time Between Worlds Co-Hosts: Matt Hudkins Ryan Nakade Jeremy Johnson
March 28, 2020