Nine Deeps of Space

I've had an axe to grind with this overrated episode for a long time. I thought a long, hard look at recent news had finally crystallized that, but maybe not.

It's about stuff.

We talk about a lot of stuff in this one. I think it's a good episode for the overarching story. It underutilizes Keiko a bit. I just don't think it or we know what it's really about.

Better than I remember, but not really 'good.'

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

We talk about...war crimes mostly. We crack jokes. About the war crimes, now that I think about it. It sounds bad, but you're going to laugh at those war crimes jokes.

It's also worse than "Progress." "Progress" had the moral complexity and messiness that becomes a strength of Deep Space Nine. Despite the twists and turns and great acting, "Duet" has the clean ending of an episodic TV show. It's--and secure your monocles--way closer to Star Trek: The Next Generation's wheelhouse than Deep Space Nine's.

The movie I was thinking about was 2016's Denial, which dramatized the events of the Irving v Penguin Books Ltd case.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It's not just a contagious, telepathic energy field; it's a contagious, telepathic energy field that's good at improv. It puts the fiction in science fiction. No one is good at improv (except for Star Trek: The Improvised Generation).

Odo lords his lack of frail, human feet over us, Kira makes a seduction attempt with martial law, and Commander Sisko buys a 3D printer. It's a good one, actually.

Also, Dax would have been great in Odo's place here, but what about Kira? O'Brien? Bashir?! Odo was probably the best choice, but it's such a one versus many episode that it's fun to think about.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

To quote a great man, "Nothing good happened here today! None was entertained, nothing was achieved, and no child's life was saved. Everything's going to go on as normal and babies are sometimes going to die and no one fucking cares!"

"If Wishes Were Horses" happened and it only happens again when you want it to. Think about that.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10  PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The  Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

"Are some main characters a little more main characters than others?" Is a big question, and one I cannot answer in season one.

We will have to see together, friends.

I usually ask a question here to prompt engagement, but this isn't really a questiony episode. It's what Game of Thrones thinks its being when it's showing us boobs and gore; a survey of hard realities seen through the eyes of our main characters.

'nuff said.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep  Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10  PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It's about the limitations of Bajoran territorial law. Bajor has clans I guess. Also villages threatened by monsters. I usually quote twenty thousand years as the age of Bajoran culture. That's actually the age of the lost city of B'hala. Bajoran culture is cited as being five hundred thousand years old.

I appreciate an episode about the diversity and nuance of Bajoran culture. But 500,000 years seems like a lot to convey when Bajorans...I'll talk about it in season three.

But did The Sirah really plan for things to shake out this way or did he sincerely believe some higher force (The Prophets) wanted O'Brien to stick around? Was it the will of The Prophets that O'Brien failed and that the village would be destroyed? Did Miles miss his true calling in life as a guy who cheerleads a Bajoran village once per year?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I've been vocal that I don't care about "universe will change forever" type of events because TNG episodes like "The Chase" and "Unnatural Selection" tell us none of it will matter. Canon in general doesn't matter to me unless I know creators care about canon. It's all the difference between "Rick and Morty" and "The Good Place."

So I don't even like "Battle Lines" for it's implications for the setting. At this point, we don't know if DS9 is any different from TNG. What matters is the human story. Not the story about Mike from Breaking Bad in a well-worn story about retribution. Not the story about a leader of a religion based on prophecy being pretty good at prophecy. But about Kira learning how to forgive herself for learning how to survive and fight.

For veteran viewers; is Kit right? Are some DS9 main characters more "main" than others?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

We're talking about jumpsuit padding, shapeshifter leather, and putting Siri in a runabout this week as hardened investigator and goo of the world Odo is taken in by an alien who knows nothing about anything.

Also, this Odo/Quark tension is getting palpable in the rewatch. I get it now, Quodo shippers. You are seen.

I guess my final read on Crodin is that he was doing all these criminal things for his daughter. That's good. But maybe I'm irrationally judgey over how comfortable he is with those criminal things. Committing a hold-up of strangers for a ship is reasonable, but he's really good at lying, he projects that he's comfortable with murder, and he's a really good liar. Like really good. Like Nathan Lane in The Producers telling him how good he is at lying. Am I being too harsh?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

This one took a bit longer because I did some additional editing work on it.

Welcome to our apolitical show where the SOCIALIST actor mocks the RICH, LIBERTARIAN FATCATS of our day. We have NO strong feelings about Jordan Peterson!

But honestly, Zek is a pretty canny operator in this one. The downfall of many leaders is the issue of succession and the ability of nepotistic transfers of power confer the skills of earning power to someone born into it. Despite the fact that it goes over the top more than doomed regiments in the Somme, it has a great B-story and tells us a lot about The Ferengi?

Is it in the middle of Deep Space Nine's annual (sometimes more than annual) Ferengi episodes? There's some wild swings in there and I answered off the cuff. Is it really four of seven (eight?).

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It's The Heartbreaker. "Move Along Home" broke Derek; it's a show that can break a man. So I'm happy that Kit and I can rip on it for 45 minutes because it's SO BAD!

So come along with us as we talk Mousetrap (and other board games), Armin Shimmerman's acting, and whatever accent Lt. Primmin is affecting (HE IS NOT SOUTHERN!). 

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep  Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night  at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and  The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

We get into it pretty quickly. There are a lot of questions. Well, one question, "Who is Vantika?"

It's answered in the teaser, but we also get to see Odo act out and talk a bit about Sisko doing admin. So there's a lot happening here.

Also, Lt Primmin is not a Southerner! This is a point of contention!

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Jadzia Dax is on trial for the, alleged, crimes committed by Kurzon Dax and we spend a plurality of our time discussing Trill probate law and an app called Spotz that lets you hire Trill to point at other Trill. So it's a good one. What can we say?

We can say that your parents are probably still having sex and once the sentient slug inside of you is put into a new, younger host body, that slug will have parents-having-sex knowledge for each life you've lived...except you're the parents!

Moore's Law was from 1965, not the 70's so I will continue to make jokes at Trek's expense over their stupid, stupid data storage solutions.

Because of the unplanned break, I'll be doubling up and putting new episodes up until we're squaresies, which should be around "The Nagus."

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

There's so many things wrong with this episode--actually, just the one thing wrong. The all-powerful being harassing his powerless ex without a moral core, lesson learned, or any point to it really except for how we're supposed to find the cruelty funny. 

Also, there's a sci-fi "thing" that's so token I feel you could lose it at Quark's dabo table.

The Skeleton War was 2014, not 2012. I apologize to all veterans of the Skeleton War and thank you for your service.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

It's our first O'Brien episode. No, he doesn't get tortured. Why would you even ask that?

"Captive Pursuit" captures a lot of early Deep Space Nine. There's a lot of TNG's mystery stories, but with more action. The characters are actual characters, but without their throughlines or an ungrayed moral lesson, it can feel pointless. In the series' urgent attempts to ingratiate itself with fans, like including the Duras sisters a few weeks ago and Q next week, it feels like it's ignoring the strengths of Star Trek and its own strengths.

I do wonder how TNG, TOS, Voyager, or even Discovery would have handled an episode like Captive Pursuit.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

So we've moved past the humor/horror of "isn't this happening now, lol," TV logic, and into the forgetting references. Titus Andronicus was the Shakespeare play. The Scrubs episode was Season 5, Episode 12 "My Cabbage."

DS9, like its predecessor, features officers who know how to make a scene dramatic. Starfleet sends out surveys for this kind of thing.

I feel like we don't have a big idea here. Things happen and while it's a good ensemble episode that's closer to mediocre than bad, I just don't see the point of it. It illustrates how people can be selfish in a crisis, but the story doesn't really care about that; it just works around it.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

In this one we're talking about the big, red analog button in every runabout, Klingon sartorial choices, and how effectively Commander Sisko can recap Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes. We also meet a new guy named...Farak or something. I don't think a tailor will be too important to our series going forward.

I guess the lesson here is that there's no unity without change? That it's not worth owning your nation wholly if you've burnt it to the ground to get that? Maybe it's a dick move to hold the people you're trying to benefit hostage as part of your vigilante actions? 

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I admit, I misremembered the climax a bit, both this time and last time. It's an Odo episode which I feel doesn't tell us too much about Odo and doesn't know how to get where it wants to be. All of our side stories are good; Keiko wants to be useful, Sisko and Dax are adjusting to their new relationship, and Bashir continues to be Bashir. 

The first few episodes of DS9 try to focus on individual characters like Sisko, Odo, Kira, O'Brien, Dax, Quark, and Bashir, but if you're new to the series, what would you if you had an episode to tell us about those characters? 

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

We're back with a new co-host, Kit, who has seen some TNG but is new to DS9. Welcome to season two of Nine Deeps of Space.

It's a good episode that never gets old and I can confirm that seeing it with fresh eyes always gives a new insight. Did The Prophets know what they were doing? Maybe the better question is...did they have done how they were because Sisko...good?

I hate temporal mechanics.

Vasquez was played by Jenette Goldstein, but Kit was thinking of Michelle Rodriguez. I have no idea who the heck I was thinking of. Maybe Rosie Perez, but I've only ever seen her Pineapple Express.

In that Deep Space Nine is going to focus more on character and setting, does it give too much up in terms of having a clear morality behind it? I mean, modern television has been described as nihilistic, and DS9 has been called a prototype of modern television, so is DS9...kind of nihilistic?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Trekalong podcast that lets you watch Deep Space Nine along with us on Netflix. It updates every other Sunday night at 10 PM CST. NDoS alternates with its partner series, The Beige and The Bold, which is about Star Trek: The Next Generation.

And we're done.

It's weird, after six years, for Derek to be out. But here we are. I don't really know what comes next.

See you space cowboy.

It's another episode with no moral, barely any plot, and just enough character stuff to make it interesting, The Wadi suck and I'm glad we never see them again.

Also, I mistook Chutes and Ladders for Candyland. Candyland isn't a game by some definitions because there's no actual randomization and it's all predetermined. I meant no offense to Chutes and Ladders, a different collection of crappy rules sold in a box to children.

I try to end these with a question, so: why would a just god allow this episode to exist?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes usually go up Sunday evenings at 10 PM CST. Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

So I guess that's it. Derek is done. It's always been something we've done as long as it was fun and it just wasn't fun for Derek anymore.

The status of Nine Deeps of Space is in limbo, but I'm still dedicated to continuing it.

Really, I think "Move Along Home" broke him.

I am 100% more compelled by the first five minutes of this episode than the sci-fi idea behind it. Bashir is a legitimately good doctor and has every right to take criticism as validation instead of a humbling gift. I just really like Bashir.

This is the first of a duo of episodes without O'Brien, and so we get Diet Caffeine-Free O'Brien, which is bizarre. I don't think it's a spoiler to say that we to the Starfleet security versus Odo thing but better later in the series. 

Maybe that feeds into the "we forgot how this universe works" thing I've brought up a few times. Like when characters beam into a hostile environment for the first time ever because we forgot that we can scan for that kind of thing in advance, and maybe bring gear if it's bad. Similarly, we kind of forget that Dax and Kira should have staff. But they just...don't.

Also, because we bring it up: does Star Trek have immortality now?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes usually go up Sunday evenings at 10 PM CST. Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

I'd be angrier if this episode called itself "Jadzia," because that would have been misleading. We learn a lot about Curzon here, but very little about Jadzia.

Also, where's our feminist compass for this episode? Bashir is clearly creepy for not taking an explicit "no" as a "yes," but his refusal to hit someone (ostensibly) because they're a woman? How the story makes it good that he follows Jadzia? That Sisko wants to punch Curzon, but doesn't punch Jadzia, but only because she's a woman? Trill episodes, to their merit, put gender reckoning into a tailspin so I'm at a loss.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes usually go up Sunday evenings at 10 PM CST. Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

At least we learned the very important lesson that uh...uh...damn.

So we learned nothing, underused John de Lancie, and made an episode that would taste like vanilla frozen yogurt, if you could order a "mild" vanilla frozen yogurt.

At least we can all agree this is the worst Q episode right? Even the one where the asks [REDACTED] to [REDACTED] him isn't as bad or the time where he uses the USS [REDACTED] as a boarding [REDACTED].

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST. Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

New life forms and new civilizations? Check. O'Brien suffers a bit? Check. Needlessly mysterious aliens? Double-check. Strong, moral idea at its core?

...uh-oh.

There's a lot to be said for this week's aliens. Like, "Is there a planet full of filthy gym socks in this universe?" and "Can those aliens go and suffocate in its core?"

It's fun, but I feel like we stretch a bit to get the story beats we want and it's ultimately unsatisfying. Am I being too harsh? Should we just accept Sisko's decisions here as being reasonable, in-universe?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST (except when it   doesn't). Episodes are hosted  on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

Hey, so between the police brutality and the pandemic, I'm checking to see if there's few DS9 Season 1 episodes where maybe there's a forest fire and then a smoothly run election and then everything is fine forever.

Obviously, DS9 isn't prescient--not any more than it was in 2019--it's just that Star Trek covers a LOT of different threats and the civilian angle of Deep Space Nine means that we see more social and cultural effects we recognize in the world around us. 

Derek and I talk a bit about Odo's shapeshifting here. Is the shapeshifting--or the lack of shapeshifting--dragging anyone out of the story? I'm aware of it, but I try not to dwell. I don't know where we stand on this though.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast.   New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST (except when it  doesn't). Episodes are hosted  on Anchor, but are available on most  podcast platforms. This is a bonus episode following our popular lead-in, The Beige and The Bold.

HIS WHOLE DEAL IS THAT HE'S TRICKING KIRA, right? She wants to see the best in him and, yeah, it's a flaw, but she doesn't get to see the scenes that we see where he's doing bad stuff when he's alone. I don't get Derek not getting Kira in this episode.

I feel like this is DS9 showcasing its intrigue chops. We did a little in the pilot, and the show dang well intends to do it more and "Past Prologue" shows that. It's a little simplistic because the twist is "terrorist bad," but I Kira's willingness to believe he can change and the turn of us being on the same side as the Cardassians give it a little nuance. Is it enough though?

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast.  New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST (except when it  doesn't). Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms. For the next few weeks, we'll be posting bonus episodes on Sunday nights after The Beige and The Bold.

WAIT! Before you watch the episode, read below.

So Derek and I disagree on the facts that happen in this episode. In editing, I checked the script at chakoteya.net. Then I thought they may have shot those scenes different from the script so I checked the episode.

Derek and I were BOTH wrong. In this episode, Keiko:

A) comes up with the idea of a school and

B) volunteers herself to be the teacher at it.

So either Derek and I suddenly got BAD at watching television or we didn't listen to what Keiko was saying. We're two white guys and it was probably a mixture of gender, status, and race that we didn't.

It undeniably fits the "men not listening to women" trope to a "T" though. Mea culpa. I can't change our genders and I can't overcome a lifetime of acclimation to privilege in an instant through the realization of it existence. I can't even pretend this is my first realization of that privilege. I can ask you to forgive Derek a bit, but I can't ask you to forgive me: either you do or you don't of your own accord at this point. 

All I can do is acknowledge I fell short and understate the need for me to do better. Which I need to.

Also, chakoteya.net is a great resource to read scripts for Star Trek episodes. I highly recommend it. Especially if you get into as many Star Trek-based internet fights as I do.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast.  New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST (except when it doesn't). Episodes are hosted  on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.

Deep Space Nine is a completely different Star Trek. Our non-human character still feels feelings, but just Isn't Like Us, a native of those planets with those stupid people and their idiotic ways is a part of the crew, our commanding officer is neither a paragon nor a captain. It is the boldest Star Trek idea after "Star Trek." 

Anyway, "Emissary" is a episode which sets up our challenges, our foils, and our heroes very well and gives us everything we need going forward. Gul Dukat is a great villain, the runabouts are indispensable, and the ability of Star Trek to repurpose elements like Chief O'Brien and the Bajorans is established beyond some TOS cameos.

Nine Deeps of Space is a Star Trek: Deep Space Nine watchalong podcast. New episodes go up Wednesday evenings at 10 PM CST. Episodes are hosted on Anchor, but are available on most podcast platforms.