Reclaiming the Garden

In this episode (despite some technical difficulties on April’s end) we have a conversation with the Co-Executive Director of Operations for Transmission Ministry Collective, Dr. Miche van Essen! Miche shares about her faith journey of growing up Jewish and how she ended up meeting Jesus and became a pastor in an evangelical church. As she was coming into her identity as a transgender woman, she found the support groups at Transmission Ministry Collective and got very involved and is now stewarding the work of creating space for trans and gender expansive Christians (we love to see it!), and she talks about her experience in the organization. We also wrestle with what it means to be living on stolen Native land and how to be aware of the “invisible layers” of oppression that we all participate in. Anna also talks about some important Armenian history, we discuss the history of protests against war and the current University protests in support of Palestine, and April and Anna reflect on the incredibly racist and cringey “activity” in kindergarten where we dressed up as Native Americans (yikes!!!).

You can find Miche on Instagram @michevanessen. Find out more of TMC here: https://transmissionministry.com/

In this episode, we have a conversation with Myles Markham, a queer and transgender advocate who currently works for Trans Lifeline and serves on the board of directors for Transmission Ministry Collective! Myles shares his journey of growing up in the deep South and how he has expanded his faith over time. We get into some nerdy theological conversations as well.

In this episode, we have a conversation with one of the principal actresses in the Broadway musical How to Dance in Ohio, Ashley Wool! She also happens to be an autistic progressive Christian and a theology nerd, so of course us neurodivergent theater nerds had to invite her to the pod. Ashley shares about becoming a Christian as a young adult and resonating with Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels, how we should lead with love and shouldn’t dehumanize the people we disagree with. She talks about her journey of being in HTDiO and we discuss the ways the show is revolutionary for accessibility and autistic representation in the musical theater industry despite its short run (we need more federal funding for the arts, damn this late stage capitalist hellscape!). Ashley also talks about meeting Lin-Manuel MIranda!

You can find Ashley on social media @ashley_wool. She encourages people to support their local theater productions!

Note: the dolphin noises that come up in a section of this episode are to take out some identifying information about April’s old church that she doesn’t want made public

In this episode, we have a conversation with Tim Whitaker, founder of the non-profit The New Evangelicals, an inclusive, Jesus-centered community that holds space for those marginalized by the evangelical church. Tim talks about his upbringing in conservative churches and his way of living “counter-culturally” within it (listening to hardcore punk Christian bands and wearing “abortion is homicide” t-shirts) and how his faith started to shift over time, realizing so many church practices have actually been stolen from “pagan” religions, being appalled by the evangelical support of Trump in the 2016 election-onward, and finally getting kicked out of his church when he started TNE. We talk about how witchy Christianity can be sometimes (how is “open your Bible to a random page, that’s God’s message for you” that much different from Tarot?). Tim discusses how he tries to use his privilege as a “theobro-passing” white guy to go into Christian Nationalist spaces to understand why people are being radicalized and what harmful narratives and conspiracy theories are being pushed there–and to fight back against that misinformation with reliable data. Tim also shares his journey of becoming LGBTQ+ affirming.

In this episode, we have a conversation with LGBTQ+ Mindset Coach and host of the Queer Consciousness Podcast, Kit Sargent! They reflect on their experience of this year’s QCF Conference and talk about their “fundie lite” upbringing (they had a True Love Waits Ring!). We discuss the sexualization of prepubescent girls’ bodies and all the things that are wrong with that.They talk about their experience of realizing their queer identity (crushing on best friends and totally being oblivious to that), and questioning and examining their beliefs in order to find their true self during the pandemic, and how The Lavender Mafia podcast helped them come out (shout out to Jess Grace Garcia and Jonathan Quinn!). We talk about how the Bible is living and active which means by its nature the way we interact with it changes over time, and how Jesus is the Word of God, not the Bible. We also talk about reclaiming our divinity–we are spiritual beings having an integrated mind-body-spirit human experience. Kit shares about the work they do as a mindset coach to help LGBTQ+ people figure out who they really are.

Note: there is discussion of child abuse in this episode

In this episode, we have a conversation with our friend Starchild, a queer autistic somatic psychotherapist, poet, musician, mystic, and ex-pastor. Starchild talks about their Southern Baptist upbringing, their journey from autistic Wonder Church Boy to renegade mystic to inclusive orthodox Methodist to the joyful queer ecstatic dance enthusiast they are now. Starchild shares some of their wonderful poetry and talks about their experiences of knowing God’s grace and love deep in their body, and connecting with God as Mother and the earth as God’s body.

In this episode, we reflect upon what’s happened in the faith/religion/spirituality and deconstruction world in 2023 with our dear friends Briana and Artie (who, along with us, make up the QCF Squad group chat). We talk about the Asbury Revival, the Pope’s recent “LGBTQ Blessing” statement, the Ruby Franke case, and the queer Christian music wins (Semler and Flamy Grant making history, hell yeah!). We also discuss the Shiny Happy People Documentary (as well as the two books by Duggar daughters released this year) and the increasing awareness about religious trauma in our culture (more therapists specializing in this is a good thing!). April gives her annual UMC update– lots more congregations are leaving the denomination, but hopefully in 2024 full LGBTQ+ inclusion may be possible. We also discuss the conflict in Israel-Palestine and the way social media has played a role in spreading awareness. 

In this episode, we talk about three conspiracy theories that are unfortunately very popular in many Christian communities: The “War on Christmas,” Zionism, and QAnon. While poking fun at the ridiculous nature of these beliefs that are not rooted in reality (Taylor Swift being named TIME person of the year is part of a 2024 election scheme, apparently!), we also discuss the real threat these fear-mongering ideologies pose to democracy and liberation, and how we should approach loved ones who fall prey to these conspiracies.

In this episode, we have a conversation with Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter, author, speaker and LGBTQ+ advocate Jennifer Knapp! Jennifer shares her faith journey, her career in the contemporary Christian music industry, and the burnout that led to her leaving it. She also talks about her coming out journey and the ways she has advocated for LGBTQ+ people in the church. We have some nerdy theological conversations as well about the wonderful act of bringing our full selves, “the gift of you,” to God. 

A note about this episode's content: we discuss disordered eating and body image issues, if you're not in a good place to listen, take care of yourself!

During a month where many of us host feasts (that are rooted in a history of colonization), we’re talking about theologies of food, and food ethics. Anna and April share stories of struggling with body image and unhealthy policing of our food choices in our teenage and early young adult years, and how those feelings likely arose from purity culture. We talk about how our experiences of eating communally, moments of hospitality and communion, helped to heal some of these conflicts, along with our changes in theology about our bodies. How we talk about bodies and pleasure impacts not just sexual desire but how we view food as well. Without making judgments about anyone’s food choices (yay for bodily autonomy and not shaming people!), we discuss the ways we can make sustainable, ethical choices about food with the options we have available to us, and how we can be aware of the food injustices/insecurities that exist in our communities and do what we can to help our neighbors. 

In this episode, we have a conversation with YouTubers (and damn good researchers on fundamentalist Christianity) the Reverend Jen and King James of Fundie Fridays! Jen and James share how they grew up non-religious but adjacent (literally and figuratively) to religion in their conservative hometowns in Missouri. Anna and April share our own stories that resonate with some of their experiences. There are also just a looooot of rabbit holes that we go down, and of course we talk some shit about fundies (fuck Michael Tait!).

In this episode, April and Anna discuss our experiences of how disability and neurodivergence were viewed in the churches we grew up in and how those views changed as we came to realize our own neurodivergence and grapple with ableist theologies. April was planning on discussing more of her realization that she is autistic but her frazzled brain just didn’t; she does have a post about it on her Substack, linked below. We discuss Jesus’ healings of sick and disabled people and how to read those in an anti-ableist lens; Jesus was restoring them to community in the only way that was possible in their context, allowing them to be ritually clean and free to go to the Temple. Today, we can follow in Jesus’ path by advocating for accessibility and affordable healthcare for all; it is our systems that are broken, not people’s bodies or minds. 

In this episode, we have a conversation with therapist, podcaster, author, and theologian Matthias Roberts! He shares his faith journey of being raised in a non-affirming church, then going to Side B (queer-folks-are-called-to-celibacy) theology as he came to terms with being gay, to realizing that LGBTQ+ Christians existed and that he could have a romantic partner and still be Christian. He also talks about his new book (available anywhere books are sold starting on October 3rd, link below for pre-order/purchase), Holy Runaways: Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion. We’re so excited about this book and the ways it breaks down what has happened to so many of us–religious trauma, and deconstruction–and how we can rebuild our faith in creative ways.

In this episode, we get down and dirty and nerdy with Paul’s long Epistle (letter) to the Romans (more specifically, the early Christian community there). This text has been used to justify bigotry towards LGBTQ+ people and the awful doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, and to manipulate people into converting, but it also has empowering passages about the love of God, and guidance on how to live in community in the midst of conflicts of belief–the church has been in theological disputes since the very beginning. The very passage that is used against LGBTQ+ people in Romans 1 is a set-up of Paul’s message that we should not judge or hold ourselves up as being superior to others! Paul also talks about how our salvation is from the faithfulness of Jesus, not necessarily faith “in” Jesus. Yes, you can’t necessarily get away from the language Paul uses about sacrifice and Jesus’ death, but this is his interpretation and what he believed would be the best way to present the Gospel to his audience. The beauty of the Gospel is that it can mean multiple things across different cultural contexts, but it all connects back to the goodness and love of Jesus.

Resources:

James Brownson’s book Bible, Gender Sexuality (take what you want, leave the anti-polyamory and anti premarital sex stuff)

In this episode, we have a conversation with our friend and political scientist Chalen Aleong! Chalen shares his faith journey and feeling like he was “too religious for queer people and too queer for religious people” and how he got involved with Q Christian Fellowship. We also discuss the Barbie movie and the weird conservative response to it, and how the movie actually shows how the patriarchy and purity culture harms both men and women (fuck the Bill Graham rule, man!! Let men and women and everyone be friends!). We also discuss the challenges and joys of faith deconstruction and how Chalen has navigated relationships with people he disagrees with politically.

In this episode, we discuss our first impressions of the apocrypha–both the texts that come from the Greek Old Testament that some Christians hold as canon Scripture (such as Sirach, Judith, or 1 Maccabees) and the early Christian texts that did not get canonized in the New Testament (such as several strange Infancy Gospels, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, and the Acts of Paul and Thecla). These texts serve as a reminder that the history of the Christian tradition has always been varied and contested and never as simple as our youth pastors made it out to be. There’s so much more to explore, but we hope this introduction encourages you to go and learn more.

In this episode, we have a conversation with queer, autistic, leftist Christian pastor Chloe Specht! She shares about growing up as a pastor’s kid in the holiness/Church of God movement, pursuing ordination in that tradition (which technically ordains women but not really in practice) and wanting to bring about change, and then realizing it wasn’t where she felt belonging (because they basically kicked her out, gross!). She also talks about being “a person of her own creation,” how she realized she’s autistic, and her journey from disembodiment to having a faith where she can bring her full self as a pastor in a Disciples of Christ church in Kentucky. And, as we sometimes do, we talk some shit about the God’s Not Dead movies.

Also, the God’s Not Dead drinking game we mention in the outro is still in the brainstorming process, look for it on our Instagram in the next few weeks…

You can find Chloe on Instagram, Threads, and Twitter @chloejspecht. 

In this episode, we discuss a topic that April wrote a 15 page paper about over her spring term: what is the human being fully alive, in light of God/the Divine? We explore what it means to be humans made in the image of God, what it means to bring the fullness of ourselves to God and one another and live authentically, and how the sharing of our stories and our diversity celebrated in community can lead to collective human flourishing and liberation (and April gushes a little about Jesus). We also discuss the specific gifts of neurodivergent and queer people that can contribute to human flourishing, and bring up the works of April’s many conversation partners, which are listed below.

Bibliography:

Boff, Leonardo. “Trinity.” Systematic Theology: Perspectives from Liberation Theology. 

Edited by Jon Sobrino and Ignacio Ellacuria. Maryknoll, NY: Orbis, 1996.

Cheng, Patrick. Radical Love: An Introduction to Queer Theology. New York: Seabury Books, 

2011.

Freire, Paulo. Pedagogy of the Oppressed: 50th Anniversary Edition. New York: Bloomsbury 

Academic, 2018.

Gunton, Colin. “Trinity, Ontology and Anthropology: Towards a Renewal of the Doctrine of the 

Imago Dei.” Persons, Divine and Human: King’s College Essays in Theological 

Anthropology. Edited by Christoph Schwöbel and Colin Gunton. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 

1991.

Kimmerer, Robin Wall. Braiding Sweetgrass. Milkweed Editions, 2013.

Kim, Grace Ji-Sun and Susan M. Shaw. Intersectional Theology: An Introductory Guide. 

Minneapolis, MN: Fortress, 2018.

Leidenhag, Joanna. “Autism, Doxology, and the Nature of Christian Worship.” Journal of 

Disability & Religion 26, no. 2 (2022).

Leidenhag, Joanna. “The Challenge of Autism for Relational Approaches to Theological 

Anthropology.” International Journal of Systematic Theology 23, no. 1 (January 2021).

Little, April. “Who is God?” Unpublished paper, The Seattle School of Theology and 

Psychology, 2023.

Mayfield, D. L. “A Good Christian Woman.” Healing is My Special Interest. June 13 2023. 

In this episode, we have a conversation with Ugandan humanitarian, educator and human rights defender Samson Turinawe! He shares his experience of becoming a Pentecostal preacher and then being excommunicated after he started preaching about accepting LGBTQ+ people and he shares his experience of realizing he is gay. He discusses the dire state of LGBTQ+ people’s safety and well-being in Uganda after the recent passing of a law that requires landlords to report to the police folks they suspect to be LGBTQ+. The work that Turinawe does at Universal Love Alliance provides support to LGBTQ+ folks and other marginalized folks in need, and you can find out how to get involved on their website (linked below). We must stand in solidarity with our Ugandan siblings because none of us are free until all of us are free, and we are so grateful for the brave and necessary work that Samson and Universal Love Alliance are doing!

In this episode, we discuss many examples of LGBTQ+ folks in religious history, from gay nuns to a non-binary Quaker in the 1800s to the deeply prayerful Marsha P. Johnson, and all kinds of other queer saints. April also brings up some of her favorite LGBTQ+ Christian scholars such as Marcella Althaus-Reid and Patrick Cheng. We encourage folks to look at the two main websites we used, LGBTQ Religious Archives Network (which contains profiles on folks from many different religious traditions) and QSpirit!

Resources:

In this episode (our 50th!!!), we have a conversation with Karen Huckaby, co-founder of The Reclaim Therapy Collective, a group of therapists specializing in helping folks heal from adverse religious experiences and spiritual trauma. Karen shares about her faith background and her intense experiences of evangelizing to people on the beach, her journey of questioning that led her to become a therapist, and the ways she has found healing and has helped others to reconnect with their full selves. 

In this episode, we have a more casual (but still passionate) discussion about current events, which inevitably was centered on the legislative and cultural attack on trans and gender-expansive people in the United States and the conservative moral panic over “wokeness.” We also discuss our disappointment with Megan Phelps-Roper’s podcast that paints J. K Rowling in a positive light, and April discusses DL Mayfield’s Substack post about the connection of ABA therapy for autistic people to conversion therapy for LGBTQ+ people.

In this episode, we have a conversation with freelance writer, film producer and playwright Peter Fenton! Peter talks about his experiences as a gay man in the evangelical church, including his time as a Christian camp counselor, and how he came to terms with accepting himself and how he has explored his evolving faith through his writing. We are so excited for Peter’s play, Abandon All Hope, to make its Off Broadway debut in June!!!!

In this episode, we get down and dirty and nerdy with Paul’s letter to Philemon, his shortest letter in the New Testament. We discuss the historical background and the gaps that the letter doesn’t tell us (why do people assume Philemon’s slave Onesimus was the one in the wrong?). We also rant about how Paul could have been clearer in his words that slavery is wrong. Although we can take some moral lessons from this letter (the example of deep friendship between Onesimus and Paul), it is important to remember that this was written to a specific person about an interpersonal conflict that we don’t know all the details about (and it definitely doesn’t mean that when you forgive you have to bring that person back into your life, yikes!).

In this episode, we have a conversation with our dear friend, bookstagrammer and aspiring author Briana Michelle Meyer!!! Briana talks to us about her upbringing at a Christian school, her love of literature and how that has impacted her faith, and her life as a teacher in South Korea. We'll be cheering her on as she goes to grad school in London in the fall!

You can find Briana on Instagram @brianamichellemeyer and on Twitter @margoroths.

Just in time for the release of Greg Laurie’s vanity film that erases Lonnie Frisbee’s queer identity (Jesus Revolution), we’re talking about films with religious (mostly Christian) themes! We discuss the God’s Not Dead and Left Behind movies, the Jesus Camp documentary, and films that explore religion in more nuanced ways, like Boy Erased, Philomena, Carrie, But I’m a Cheerleader, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, and more.

In this episode, we have a conversation with worship pastor and queer Christian podcaster Jess Grace Garcia at the 2023 Q Christian Fellowship Conference! Jess talks about their faith journey and with it their evolving relationship with worship music. Likewise, we also dive into Jess’ journeys with gender and sexuality and how it has impacted their life, and we learn about the amazing concept of “Do be do.”

You can find Jess on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok @jessgracegarcia. You can find the podcast they host with Jonathan Quinn, Lavender Mafia, wherever you listen to podcasts. And of course, if you want some affirming worship music in your life, you can find Q Worship Collective on Instagram and Spotify!

In this episode, April and Anna share our coming out stories (which are still always unfolding, never one and done). From our first crushes and “oh my God, how did you not know” moments, to the times we first spoke aloud that we might be queer, to openly living our joyfully queer lives, we talk about our journey towards accepting ourselves and having the bravery to start telling others. We hope that in being out and proud now, we invite folks to share their stories and bring their full selves.

In this episode, Anna and April recount our experiences at the Q Christian Fellowship Conference. We got to meet (and hug!) so many dear friends in-person for the first time, hear talks from folks we admire, goof around in DC, hit up gay bars, and of course do a live podcast show! It was so much fun (even when we felt exhausted at times) and we can’t wait until we can be together with our queer Christian fam again.

In this episode, we have a conversation with author and religious studies scholar/professor Brad Onishi (who also is a co-host of the Straight White American Jesus podcast)! Brad talks about his upbringing in evangelical spaces in California, his journey from being a youth pastor to deconstructing to becoming a scholar on white Christian Nationalism, and also a little about his experiences in Paris (April gets excited whenever she has an excuse to talk to people about Paris).

We’re back with our podcast pals Jordyn and Sara for another year-in-review! We talk about Tish Harrison Warren’s terrible not-Anglican New York Times takes, God is Grey’s problematic treatment of Jo Luehmann that left a bad taste in our mouths, the bureaucratic nightmare that is the United Methodist Church split, the overturning of Roe v. Wade, the amazing anthems of Maddie Zahm for us burnt-out Good Christian Girls, the chaos of Elon Musk buying Twitter, and more. We hope y’all have a Happy New Year and are so excited for what’s in store in 2023!

In this episode, Anna and April draw from our respective academic disciplines (social work and theology) and Sara Miles’ memoir Take This Bread to discuss strategies for how to sustain ourselves in the work of healing and justice, including neurodivergent-friendly alternatives to meditation. Sara Miles’ connection to bodily spiritual experience, her conviction that her “body was connected literally and mysteriously to other bodies and loved without reason” and the grace she experienced through communion led her to start a food pantry through her church that empowered the people who came there to engage in it themselves, to feed others as they had been fed–it’s a story of creating beauty and justice in the midst of the messiness of community. April and Anna also reflect on what we’ve learned in grad school so far.

In this episode, we have a conversation with Baptist pastor Dana and ordained Hindu Fred, who are happily married. They share their beautiful story of finding each other through a dating app and connecting over a shared love of spirituality despite their differing beliefs. They discuss their life together and how they take part in each others’ spiritual traditions/practices and how that cross-fertilization has been helpful for them. We also unpack Paul’s often misused words in 2 Corinthians about “being unequally yoked with non-believers”; like Dana says, it’s not about having the same faith but having deep faith.

In this episode, we, along with our friends Celia and Colleen from Assemblies of Pop Podcast, share our memories of Christian music and the culture created around it (music festivals, etc): we talk about TobyMac, Family Force 5, DC Talk, Dara Maclean, the big worship bands like Hillsong and Bethel, and other artists of various genres that have been lumped into the Christian label. We discuss how our relationship to Christian and/or worship music changed as we went through faith deconstruction, and the kinds of music we enjoy listening to now (we can listen to “secular” pop music and other things our parents or our own evangelical selves would not allow us to listen to!). We also chat a little bit about hymns at the end, because discovering the richness of worship music that existed before the 1960/70s to the present has been helpful to the spiritual growth of several of us.

In this episode, we have a conversation with mystical theologian and author of Bad Theology Kills, Kevin Garcia! Kevin shares their spiritual journey from being in ex-gay ministry to finding wholeness in queer identity and finding God in their body, in other people, and in practices such as yoga. We get into some pretty deep theological discussions (April tries to articulate her Christology) and talk about what makes us feel alive with wonder, whether that be in a church community or somewhere completely different. We hope this conversation inspires you to sit in the mystery and find spiritual practices that are good for your well-being.

In honor of this spooky month, this episode is all about what scares evangelical Christians to death (but we forgot to even really talk much about Halloween–oops!). From cuss words to the “devil’s lettuce” to feminist theory to children’s media not being superheteronormative (Baby Bear from Sesame Street can’t have a doll, he’s a boy!!!), we discuss why these “scandalous” things are actually not that scary, and often can be good things!

Now that we’ve been doing this podcast for a year and a half (!), we figured it was time for a re-introduction. Anna and April talk about what we do on this podcast–we break down the bad theology we learned in our evangelical adolescences, and share our journeys of learning new ways to look at biblical texts, sexual ethics, systems of power, and more. We also interview all kinds of wonderful people–mostly LGBTQ+ folks and/or people who have left toxic religious environments, but we’re always excited about featuring any voice who has something to say about religious or spiritual identity. We also give some recommendations of where you should start listening–if you want to hear personal stories, check out “Let’s Talk About Purity Culture.” If you want to dig deep into theology, try out one of our Bible Dyke Deep Dives. And honestly, all our guests are phenomenal, but our first two interviews (Amy Kósa and Alicia Crosby, respectively) will always be close to our hearts.

Here are some updated bios as well:

April Little (she/her) is a queer Christian and ex-evangelical who is studying for her Master’s degree in Theology and Culture: Community Development at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. She is passionate about LGBTQ+ inclusion and liberation in the church and any other religious/spiritual spaces. She is in the process of writing a memoir about healing from the religious trauma of growing up in an evangelical church that led her to repress her sexuality.

She believes that vulnerable storytelling is the foundation for creating change in the world, and she loves facilitating spaces for people to share their stories. She wants to help create a world where all LGBTQ+ folks, particularly youth, know that they are beloved by God, and can experience love among thriving communities (whether they are communities of faith or not). April is also a big nerd when it comes to musicals, the French language, and the Bible.

Anna Dawahare (she/they) is a student, creative, and nerd living in beautiful Southern California. She is currently attending Fordham University (online, because that’d be a long commute) and is part-way through getting her Masters in Social Work. Upon graduating, Anna wants to practice with LGBTQ+ youth and those harmed by religious trauma, as well as obtain her license to private practice.

They love being able to share the stories of their friends on Reclaiming the Garden as well as researching the variety of topics brought up (Anna is a sucker for a good research product because, as mentioned above, she is a nerd). Their life purpose is to be the snarky, genderqueer older sibling they needed when they were younger. When she isn’t studying, working at her internship, or podcasting, Anna sings with Angel City Chorale, volunteers with Q Christian Fellowship, and drinks copious amounts of tea. The way to her heart is a nice jasmine green tea. Anna aspires to be Uncle Iroh- as we all should.

In this episode, we have a conversation with Keri Seymour, a multi-hyphenate human who currently lives in London who acted as Anna’s coming out sounding board. Keri tells the story of her difficult Catholic adolescence and her time spent in a convent (where yes, she did indeed kiss a nun), and she talks about the questions she had about Jesus and God that ultimately led to her taking on the belief that if any being created the world, they’re not really “here” anymore. We believe, as progressive Christians, that it is important to listen to Keri and others who have found wholeness leaving faith entirely, because it keeps us from falling into the cliche of telling people, “well you just haven’t found the real Jesus, that was human religion, but you should try out my affirming church.” If people are happy and whole where they are, we should celebrate that.

You can find Keri on Instagram @whiskywhinebier.

Although our modern understanding of sexuality and gender identity and the terms we use to describe the spectrum of those identities are very different than the understanding and language used during “Bible times” (across several centuries, cultures, and languages), we can still look at certain relationships and characters in the Bible and see how they went outside of the sexual, relational, and/or gender norms of their culture. These are, in a sense, our LGBTQ+ ancestors, and they point to the truth that there has always been a spectrum of difference in human sexuality and gender identity. In this episode, we talk about David and Johnathan (who were probs more than “just buds”), Naomi and Ruth (who Boaz was the sperm donor for), Joseph and his princess dress, the Ethiopian Eunuch (and eunuchs in general as a sexual minority–although the law prohibited them from participating in religious life, a disciple, Philip, baptized him with no questions asked), and Jesus and the Beloved Disciple (and all the other ways Jesus can be interpreted as any of the letters in LGBTQIA+).

Resources:

In this episode, we have a conversation with author and liberation theologian Damon Garcia, whose book, The God Who Riots: Taking Back the Radical Jesus, releases today, August 23rd; links to purchase available below/on his social media pages! We chat with Damon about his spiritual journey of growing up conservative evangelical and discovering that the Jesus he read about in the Gospels was much different than what his church had taught, and why he had to leave the church where he was leading youth ministry. April and Anna bring up their favorite themes of the book (the way he writes about forgiveness will blow your mind!!! In the collectivist culture of the time it was understood to be a communal act that takes away the shame that society has placed upon them!!), and we discussed practical ways for living out God’s dream of radical justice in community. We deeply enjoyed reading his book and we hope you will too!

In this episode, we break down what we were taught about money, the economy, and socioeconomic status in the churches we grew up in. Even if we were not explicitly taught the “prosperity gospel” à la televangelists (that if you be the best Christian you can be and donate a lot of money to the church, God will make you rich, and poor people are “just lazy and don’t have God’s favor”), we were still taught that capitalism was Good and socialism was Scary, that the government shouldn’t take the church’s role of caring for the poor. We were still taught an individualistic view that people could have financial abundance if they put in the work, completely ignoring the many systemic barriers that keep marginalized communities from acquiring financial security. We also discussed the consumerist culture present in evangelicalism with its church coffee shops and concert style worship.

But God’s vision of economic justice, and justice in general, is the exact opposite of that, and the culture in which the Scriptures were written was collectivist. The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are FILLED with calls to care for our neighbors, to not hoard things when we already have enough. Jesus says the poor are blessed, because the poor are the closest to God–God is not partial to a political party, but God is on the side of the poor and oppressed, always. And that has implications that we (Anna and I grew up well-off) have to wrestle with and make sure we are truly living out God’s call to justice and wholeness for all.

Resources:

In this episode, we have a conversation with ex-Mormon (or “exmo”) YouTubers Jordan and McKay! They share their journey of growing up in the Mormon/LDS church and the things that caused them to doubt until their “shelves” of faith broke and they decided to leave (the disturbing history of Joseph Smith marrying women as young as 14, the practices and lack of informed consent in the Temple, among other things). All of us discuss what we were taught about the other’s faith tradition–Anna and April were taught that Mormonism was a cult and that Mormons were going to hell, and *gasp* they believed in a Heavenly Mother as well as Father; and Jordan and McKay were taught that, although Mormons tried to do work in partnership with other denominations, those denominations were a distorted mirror compared to Joseph Smith’s restored church. April talks about how her church’s support of Mitt Romney was the first crack in her evangelical faith (because if he’s going to hell as they taught her all Mormons are, then why are they voting for him?). We also talk about the tension in Mormon culture of being very patriotic but also having a distrust of “big government.”

In this episode, we get down and dirty and nerdy with the ancient lawbook of Leviticus. We break down the arbitrary categories we were given to interpret the laws of the Hebrew Bible (the moral law vs. the ceremonial law; even if this concept was applied, the rule prohibiting mixed fabrics is in a section of mostly “moral laws”), and we discuss Leviticus’ authorship (not Moses lol, he didn’t have the time). We also consider the question that Christians have been debating from the very beginning (and in fact we see this debate played out in several books of the New Testament): As Christians, which parts of the law do we follow, and which ones are specific to the culture of the time? Paul had to deal with a lot of people getting mad at the radical message of grace that he and apostles like Peter preached: do not call unclean what God has made clean.

We also break down two of the most often cited “clobber passages'' used to condemn LGBTQ+ people, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. These verses are likely about temple prostitution between men or between an adult man and a boy. And to anyone who would tell us that accepting LGBTQ+ people will lead to our society accepting other forms of sex prohibited in Leviticus (bestiality, incest), we say: you’re thinking about bestiality an awful lot, aren’t you? Also, sex or romantic relationships between two consenting adults is a completely different thing.

Plus, there is so much more to Leviticus than those two clobber verses! Within parts of it, there are beautiful models for how to love our neighbors (especially refugees and those in need) and the earth, and it is a shame that this wisdom is so often missed when we focus on just a few verses (or get weirded out by all the details about animal sacrifice at the beginning of the book).

Resources:

In this episode, we have a conversation with Richie X, an autistic, queer and non-binary writer/commentator and host of two podcasts, Surviving Fundamentalism and Underdogs on Top! They share their winding faith journey from being raised Muslim to finding Black Baptist churches and becoming a young preacher, to finding Pentecostalism, to joining a fundamentalist cult, to deconstructing and finding wholeness in the God who “just is,” who says “They are who They are.” They also discuss how their neurodivergence impacted their experience in religious spaces (religion gave rules and black + white thinking, gave them a passion to research Bible/theology), and how education opened up their mind to new ideas and led them down the path of deconstruction and coming to terms with their queer identity.

You can find Richie X on Instagram and Twitter @richieatitagain. You can find their podcasts Surviving Fundamentalism and Underdogs on Top wherever you listen to podcasts.

In celebration of the Tony’s (which at time of release was this past Sunday), Anna and I discuss several musicals that make us think about theology and/or LGBTQ+ identity (and we include the perspectives of a few of our friends, too!). We of course start with musicals that take their stories from the Bible (Jesus Christ Superstar, Godspell and Prince of Egypt which yes, April still needs to watch), then go into shows that have inspired us in our journeys of faith without having outright religious themes–among them are anti-purity culture anthems from Wicked and Heathers, queer joy in The Prom, Fun Home, and Everybody’s Talking About Jamie, and (okay, these actually do have outright religious themes) the redemption stories in A Muppet Christmas Carol and Les Miserables. We hope you enjoy what is the most lighthearted episode we’ve ever recorded!

Due to some scheduling conflicts and April and Anna having a lot going on in late May, our May guest interview has been moved to June. But today we’re dropping a minisode with some cool life updates! Anna talks about her experience with grad school (MA in Social Work) so far, her classes and internship; April talks about her belated graduation (which on date of release was this past Sunday, look at her Instagram for photos!!) and her upcoming move back to Seattle in July. We also discuss our nervousness re: the current rise in covid cases (and Anna unfortunately has covid right now–they’re not doing too bad but prayers and love sent her way are appreciated). We hold our joys and sorrows together as we look forward to the opportunities ahead of us.

Content warning: depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation. Please take care of yourself, we love y’all.

This episode is all about mental health (and we didn’t even realize May is Mental Health Awareness Month when we recorded it!). We discuss how the churches we grew up in did not equip us to deal with our depression and anxiety in a healthy way (“just pray and read the Bible and deal with the sin in your life, then you’ll be happy…our hardships in life are for the perfection of our faith”), and of course were actively involved in the repression of our sexualities which made matters worse. We speak openly about the emotional rollercoasters we’ve been on and how we’ve sought to heal. Therapy and medication have been vital to our thriving, and that is a beautiful thing that is not to be ashamed of–Jesus is our spiritual guide and our comfort in the midst of struggle, but he’s not a therapist, and medicine is a modern miracle, a form of grace.

Mental Health Resources

In this episode, we take on a topic so big (heaven, hell, the final destiny of creation), we had to bring in the perspectives of our friends from Ravel Podcast–Emily Rettinghouse, Josh Lieuallen, and Stephen Henning. We break down what we were taught about the afterlife (kind of having amnesia in heaven about your friends and family who were in hell? And heaven being a neverending church service? Yikes!) in our respective faith backgrounds. We then discuss how our views have changed over time, our questions and doubts about why a loving God would punish people forever and about whether there even is an afterlife. All of us land in different places in what we believe now and how that affects how we live (Emily is clergy and she is very refreshing in how openness that she isn’t sure if heaven or hell exist), but all of us are connected to the idea of new creation, not just in some distant future–Jesus’ teachings about the Kingdom of Heaven invite us into the restoration of ourselves, our communities, and the earth, right here and now (and that unfortunately, some people choose to create hell on earth instead). And for some of us, that hope of new creation goes beyond death and into a vision where one day, all life on this earth will be restored, and instead of an endless worship service, maybe heaven is an adventure where we imagine and create with God and each other.

You can follow Ravel Podcast on Instagram and Twitter @ravelpod, and make sure to give their episodes a listen wherever you’re listening to ours! You can follow the individual folks here: @stephenghenning on Insta and Twitter, @joshlieuallen on Twitter, and @RevRettinghouse on Twitter.

In this episode, we get down and dirty and nerdy with scripture (and liberation theology) as we discuss the central claim of Christianity: that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, died, was buried, and rose from the dead. We break down what we were taught about Jesus’ death, the “God-ordained” cosmic child abuse known as penal substitutionary atonement theory–that on the cross Jesus took God’s wrath that was meant for us and our sins, because otherwise sin would separate us from God like “a chasm.” And in accepting Jesus' sacrifice and believing in him as Lord and Savior, one is saved from the wrath of hell (we’ll talk more on hell in our next episode). This theory of atonement didn’t exist until the Reformation (thanks, Calvin and Luther) and does not jive with the historical understanding of the Trinity as a loving, self-giving presence–God cannot punish Godself. And our God is one of restorative justice, not retributive justice.

We talk about the various ways our understanding of Jesus’ death and resurrection, and the painful journey that led up to it, has deepened and changed over the past few years. The work of Black liberation theologians such as James Cone and Womanist theologians like Delores Williams shine a light on how the violence of the cross is very similar to the violence faced by Black people in the past and present (lynching, police violence, incarceration)--it was a way of instilling fear and keeping order, it was a showing of the empire’s power over others. Though Cone and Williams take different stances on how to interpret the cross, both of their voices are vital in keeping us from glorifying the violence of the cross, reminding us of Jesus’ solidarity with the suffering and marginalized, and calling us to be in solidarity with the crucified bodies in our midst today. We also talk about the presence of women in the narrative of the ending of all four Gospels–they followed him to the cross, wept beside him after all other disciples had abandoned him, and they were the first to see him raised from the dead and proclaim this to the other disciples–and men wrote all of that in the Bible, even though a woman’s testimony would not be accepted in court at the time.

Ultimately, we think Jesus’ death on the cross was not a divine necessity, but a result of the earthly powers that conspired to kill him (the majority of which came from the Roman state and the religious establishment that had aligned itself with the state); we hold space for the turbulent emotions of Jesus and his disciples, and we remember them, not wanting to skip from Palm Sunday to Easter. But we hold hope that this isn’t the end of the story. We believe that the goodness, love, and life of Jesus was more powerful than the empire, and in this way he conquered death and beat the powers of evil–no payment, no transaction, no wrath. This way of thinking about atonement and the cross is called Christus Victor, and is historically the view that most Christians throughout the centuries have held. And this resurrection life is something Jesus offers to us; he calls us to a new kind of being human.

If you’re listening to this on the day of release, may you have a blessed Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter. Christ has died; Christ is risen; Christ will come again. And God holds us in our doubts and questions in the spaces between those words.

Here are the resources we bring up in the episode:

In this episode, we have a conversation with our friend Ellie Dote, a transgender Christian woman, public speaker, and business owner! She shares about her winding faith background from Catholicism to Calvary Chapel evangelicalism and working in church ministry, and the various experiences that brought her life to a turning point, including getting diagnosed as HIV positive. She talks about her coming out journey and how often, churches were fine with her presence at women’s events until she told them she was trans (and April wonders, what are all these LGBTQphobic churches going to do with more and more trans people living into their truth?), and she talks about her brave ministry of reaching out to evangelical pastors to share her story. She also discusses why she wrote her book, Walking Towards Cordelia; she wants people to know the story of a trans person so that they can no longer say they’re ignorant, they have to be accountable–kind of like how evangelicals talk about the Gospel: now that you’ve heard this, what will you do with the information? How will you respond? We know we’ll respond by advocating for the rights of our trans beloveds everywhere.