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The Feed Weekly

The Feed Weekly

By The Feed NZ

This is The Feed – a weekly wrap of the news, views and skews on NZ food, drink and everything between. The Feed is for those who grow food, the ones who make, harvest and forage, who package, ship it and sell food - mostly importantly, for those who eat food and like to talk about it.

So join us at TheFeed.co.nz and welcome to The Feed Weekly.
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The Feed Weekly - July 20th, 2021

The Feed WeeklyJul 19, 2021

00:00
36:41
PREVIEW: The Sauce

PREVIEW: The Sauce

A brand new podcast from The Feed, The Sauce features Vicki Ravlich-Horan from Nourish Magazine and Tash McGill, the Spirits Writer from More Good Drinks chatting all things saucy - sometimes sweet and sometimes spicy.


Subscribe at https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tash-mcgill0/episodes/The-Sauce-on-Cookbooks-e2c8bgg.

Nov 22, 202341:43
A Saucy Goodbye & A Sweet Hello
Nov 22, 202302:48
The Feed Weekly ft The Tay-to-Tini

The Feed Weekly ft The Tay-to-Tini

Invivo Wines have taken a unique approach to the world of winemaking and spirits, collaborating with Graham Norton to produce approachable wines, gin and now - vodka. Tim from Invivo Wines and Dave Ryan from Black Pineapple join Tash McGill to talk about collaboration, all things Irish and to introduce the incredible Tay-to-tini, available in a limited edition kit this summer.

You can also watch this podcast in video format https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5XEn-2PW3c

Dec 08, 202229:42
How to do Hospo - Camille Rope & Sophie Gilmour

How to do Hospo - Camille Rope & Sophie Gilmour

Camille Rope and Sophie Gilmour are well known for their hospitality ventures. Sophie is the co-owner of Fatima's Restaurants, and Camille is a chef and consultant and together they run advisory firm Delicious Business. But earlier this year, they took the trouble to stop and think about what makes for success. The result was AUT Co-Starters: the Hospo Edition, a 10-week programme that equips aspiring hospitality entrepreneurs with the insight and tools needed to take the next step in building a sustainable business. Vincent spoke to them about what matters most.

Nov 24, 202213:55
The Meadows are Greener

The Meadows are Greener

This week Vincent speaks with Nick Carey, from Green Meadows. The Carey family have been farming in Taranaki for 120 years. But in 2012 they stepped into the unknown, launching a butchery and an online store to take their grass-fed Angus beef directly to the public. Ten years on, that online store is thriving but Green Meadows is also now in major supermarkets, exported to Singapore and the Pacific Islands and experimenting with new flavours and product, in partnership with chef Michael van de Elzen.

Nov 10, 202225:49
James Smith - The Tattooed Butcher

James Smith - The Tattooed Butcher

James Smith started his working life as a night-shift worker in a small butcher shop. Thirteen years later he’s won multiple awards, including the 2020 NZ Butcher of the Year and was selected for the New Zealand Sharp Blacks team - that’s right, there is such a thing. But it was in a Sydney competition that earned the title, The Tattooed Butcher, an identity he’s now fully embraced on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok. Vincent spoke to James for a few minutes between his busy schedule of filming and managing those spring orders for his online shop.

Nov 03, 202215:18
A Writer in Wine Country - An Interview with Rex Picketts

A Writer in Wine Country - An Interview with Rex Picketts

American novelist and filmmaker Rex Pickett is in New Zealand roaming around in a campervan, travelling to our best wine regions and Winetopia, all in search of the storyline for the next sequel to Sideways, his renown novel that was made into an acclaimed film of the same name in 2004. We spoke about his impressions of New Zealand's wine country so far and what's he's hoping for as he travels around the country meeting wine-lovers, book lovers and winemakers. 

Aug 11, 202244:05
An Architect of Flavour and Mindful Drinking.

An Architect of Flavour and Mindful Drinking.

Lyre's Spirits Co. have been thoughtfully changing the way people think about non-alcoholic cocktails and mindful drinking on both sides of the bar. We spoke with Lyre's Flavour Architect, David Murphy about how he creates flavour, mouthfeel and an approach to cocktails that feels fresh and comforting. 

Aug 04, 202240:22
The Beauty of Beervana – with Ryan McArthur

The Beauty of Beervana – with Ryan McArthur

Beervana is New Zealand's premier craft beer event, offering the best from NZ and Australia and a few handpicked craft beers from around the world. It’s also a mind-bending, palate expanding wonderland that fills Wellington’s Sky Stadium on August 19/20 with 80+ breweries 400 beers. From outrageous brewery displays to the best culinary bites, exciting live music and weird street performance it’s a beerstravagnaza.

It’s also amazingly the 21st year for Beervana and to tell us all about this year’s event and celebration Vincent was joined by Beervana manager Ryan McArthur.

Jul 27, 202224:39
Martin Bosley & Morgan McGlone Pop Up at Wellington on A Plate

Martin Bosley & Morgan McGlone Pop Up at Wellington on A Plate

Wellington on a Plate launches in the last weekend of this month and runs through August. Kicking off in the first weekend is pop up experience, The Sea Breeze Inn, celebrating Aotearoa New Zealand's fresh, seasonal and sustainable kaimoana. The Inn will run over three-nights, 29- 31 July. With a nod to nostalgic childhood family restaurants, expect classics to be reinterpreted, including fish and chips, fritters, chowder and a raw bar.

Vincent was joined by Sea Breeze brains, chef Morgan McGlone, and collaborator Martin Bosley from Yellow Brick Road.

Jul 21, 202222:28
The Sharp End of Gender Politics In the Kitchen

The Sharp End of Gender Politics In the Kitchen

Shelagh Mooney is Associate Professor and Research Lead at the School of Hospitality & Tourism, Auckland University of Technology, Aotearoa-New Zealand. Her research has most recently been focused on diversity, barriers to equitable employment and gender imbalance in tourism and hospitality. Shelagh collaborates with others in Australia, the United Kingdom and Scotland who also advocate for decent work in tourism. We interviewed Shelagh on her research and what the imperatives are for industry to change given the current tourism and hospitality workforce shortage.


Jul 06, 202240:60
Visa Wellington on a Plate is back!

Visa Wellington on a Plate is back!

Visa Wellington on a Plate is back – here’s how, why and when!

After two years of Covid disruption Visa Wellington on a Plate is back! New Zealand’s most innovative food festivals is a month-long celebration of food, beer, burgers and capital culture. This year the theme is State of Flux and Vincent was joined by director Sarah Miekle and head of programming and events Beth Brash.

Jun 01, 202233:55
Latching On - Wendy Poon

Latching On - Wendy Poon

Wendy Poon, a working Kiwi mother of two, has developed a new range of galactogogue (or milk-boosting) products. She launched the nutraceutical business during the pandemic and is now exporting to more than 20 countries.

Poon’s range of organic and natural Booster Blends and Protein Powders are formulated to support lactation levels of breastfeeding new mothers. With help from social media and

referrals from a global network of midwives and lactation consultants, sales have grown by over 500% each year – supplying thousands of customers in a diverse range of countries including Alaska and Jersey.

The product range is based on a global trend towards functional foods. Sarah Heeringa talks with Poon to discover more.

May 25, 202225:56
A Culture of Fish - Dr Georgina Dowd

A Culture of Fish - Dr Georgina Dowd

You already know about plant protein as a meat alternative - you know, peas, soy, beans and so on. And you probably have already tasted an Impossible Burger, which is largely plant-based but uses fermentation to produce the blood-like heme flavour. But a third category of alt-protein is so new that no one yet has commercialised it. Lab-based or cultured meat, is animal protein grown in a lab on a substrate using original animal cells. It’s quite the schizz in tech circles and NZ is in the race too. Of all three, it’s the most exciting and elusive alternative to agriculture. To talk all things cultured meat, Vincent was joined by Dr Georgina Dowd, of Plant&Food Research who is exploring ways to grow fish protein.

May 15, 202229:57
We need to talk about food waste. Dr Jeff Seadon, AUT University

We need to talk about food waste. Dr Jeff Seadon, AUT University

NZ households throw out 230,000 tonnes of food waste annually, of which 54% was avoidable - that is, still edible. That’s enough to feed two cities the size of Dunedin or to provide lunches for all school-aged children for three years. Yikes. Vincent spoke to Dr Jeff Seadon, the czar of waste at AUT School for Future Environments about the solution to our recklessness.

Like many councils Auckland Council has a bold ambition to get to zero landfill waste by 2040 - and it recently proposed changes to the region’s waste collection, including food waste bins for turning into compost. Sounds good. But is it? The changes include increasing the size of some kerbside bins and sending the food waste by truck 290km to Reporoa in Waikato. The changes are criticised for not going too far and not far enough. And they highlight just how gnarly this problem is. Well to unpick this for us is Dr Jeff Seadon, a senior lecturer at the AUT School for Future Environments.

May 03, 202226:14
Sugar bans & Virtue Signalling - Prof Grant Schofield.

Sugar bans & Virtue Signalling - Prof Grant Schofield.

Sugary drinks are just the tip of a crappy iceberg: Professor Grant Schofield, AUT

The government is set to ban sugary drinks from schools. You’d think that might make a professor of public health happy. But Grant Schofield of AUT is unimpressed. “I don't think it will do anything measurable and the trouble with these interventions is you look like you’re doing something but you’re not acting on the real problem.” That is, the remaining 70-80% of school lunch boxes which are full of unhealthy, processed food.

Schofield’s research into New Zealand’s lunchboxes and shopping trolleys reveals the shocking state of our diets. Vincent asked him what can be done to reverse the picture.

Apr 26, 202231:45
Festival Utopia - Winetopia's Rob Eliott
Apr 19, 202235:49
Hop and happening – how NZ hops became big. With Ron Beatson and Kerry Templeton

Hop and happening – how NZ hops became big. With Ron Beatson and Kerry Templeton

The New Zealand hops industry goes from strength to strength, with $50m in export sales, 200 craft breweries and more hectares being planted every year. Hops are hot. Some people are even predicting that hops could go the way of grapes as the craft beer industry explodes like wine did in the 1980s. But how sustainable is this growth, what cultivars show the most promise and why are hops only found in Motueka? Vincent was joined by the leading scientists behind NZ’s hop breeding programme, Ron Beatson who has recently retired and his successor, Kerry Templeton, senior scientists with Plant & Food.

Apr 12, 202232:19
State of A Drinking Nation
Apr 05, 202222:53
What will NZ farmers commit to on climate change? We speak to He Waka Eke Noa Programme Director Kelly Forster.

What will NZ farmers commit to on climate change? We speak to He Waka Eke Noa Programme Director Kelly Forster.

What will farmers commit to on climate change? 

This month farmers are discussing their approach to managing greenhouse gas emissions - as the road show for He Waka Eke Noa comes to an end. The next few weeks are interesting. What will farmers agree to? What will He Waka Eke Noa propose to Minister Shaw? And will government agree?

Vincent was joined by He Waka Eke Noa Programme Director Kelly Forster.

Mar 25, 202240:39
Cheap and cheerless – is this hospo’s chance at rebuilding better?

Cheap and cheerless – is this hospo’s chance at rebuilding better?

Cheap and cheerless – is this hospo’s chance at rebuilding better? David Williamson, AUT

The hospitality business has been decimated by Covid-19 - probably more than any other. So you’d forgive the sector for cutting its cloth to suit. But when does cutting cloth become cutting corners? AUT’s David Williamson a senior lecturer at AUT University conducted one of the first serious surveys of hospitality workers - and the results are disturbing. 18% of workers we paid below the minimum wage; 22% receive no holiday pay; 16% of workers did not sign an employment agreement; a staggering 81% received no training. Why is the sector such a poor employer and does it matter? And how can it rebuild into a more sustainable industry?

Mar 17, 202236:45
The Feed Long Lunch - Farming Fish Sustainably

The Feed Long Lunch - Farming Fish Sustainably

Farming fish sustainably: Suzy Black and Damian Moran, Plant&Food Research

Fish farming is good and all, but it’s just as messy as the land-based. Imagine if you could farm sustainably with fish native to New Zealand? That’s just one of the outcomes promised by Plant & Food Research. Vincent talks to scientists Suzy Black and Damian Moran about a new way to think about fish, farms and the ocean as a source of food.

Mar 10, 202232:05
The Feed Long Lunch - Anna King Shahab, Lazy Susan
Mar 03, 202234:36
The Feed Long Lunch - Nick Hammond, CEO of SpringSheep

The Feed Long Lunch - Nick Hammond, CEO of SpringSheep

The Spring Sheep Milk Company is the largest sheep milk producer in the southern hemisphere, being supplied by 12,700 sheep in the Waikato and having developed its own breed of sheep, Zealandia. So how bright is the future of sheep milk? And can it compete with its big bovine brother on the one hand, and the feisty plant alternatives on the other. Vincent was joined by Nick Hammond, co-founder of SpringSheep and now newly appointed as CEO.

Feb 24, 202237:39
The Feed Long Lunch - Lulu Taylor, Secret Kiwi Kitchen
Feb 17, 202236:29
The Feed Long Lunch - Taco Medic

The Feed Long Lunch - Taco Medic

What started as a food truck in Queenstown has expanded to two thriving restaurants plus a newly opened outlet in Ponsonby Road and is promising to become a chain of branded stores across Auckland, then New Zealand and maybe even offshore. So what madness drove cousins Robbie McGillivray and Ant Wilkins to launch a restaurant chain in the time of Covid? Vincent went hunting for answers.

Feb 10, 202234:14
The Feed Long Lunch - Cherie Metcalfe

The Feed Long Lunch - Cherie Metcalfe

We first interviewed Cherie Metcalfe from Pepper & Me, KitCo and Cain & Abel earlier last year. It was such a popular episode, we're releasing the whole conversation for you this week. Cherie first trained as a chef in the Bay of Plenty before looking at options to support her growing family. From there, Pepper & Me was born and has become a real success story of New Zealand entrepreneurship. We talked about each of the brands and how accessibility is changing the New Zealand food story. 

Feb 03, 202237:46
The Feed Long Lunch - Jade Gray

The Feed Long Lunch - Jade Gray

If you were looking for someone to launch a new food brand, Jade Gray is your man. He’s managed a farm and a supermarket butchery, ran a meat processing plant in China, launched a chain of pizza stores in Beijing called Gung Ho! Pizza (China's first B Corp certified Food and Beverage company). Now Jade and his family are back in New Zealand and he’s just launched Off-Piste Provisions, a plant-based food start-up dedicated to making Aotearoa as famous for its plant-protein as it is for lamb. 


Jan 28, 202240:43
The Feed Long Lunch - Michael Van De Elzen
Jan 20, 202232:22
The Feed Weekly - 2021 Wrapped Up

The Feed Weekly - 2021 Wrapped Up

In our last episode for 2021, we wrap up our highlights and the biggest stories in food this year. We also interview Lauraine Jacobs on the top cookbooks and food tales to get stuck into over your summer reading season. Finally - we give you a heads up on what's coming in 2022 for The Feed. Thanks for all your support this year. 



Dec 29, 202149:35
The Feed Weekly - 10 December, 2021

The Feed Weekly - 10 December, 2021

This week we’re talking about fast chicken, big changes at Lion, the closure of an Auckland icon and how hemp is taking over-65s by storm. Then Tash speaks to Jayshri Ganda about the runaway success of the mother-daughter cookbook “A little bit of this and a little bit of that’ - it’s award winning, home grown and has sold more than 4000 copies.

Dec 10, 202133:43
The Feed Weekly - November 19, 2021
Nov 18, 202143:56
The Feed Weekly - 9 Nov, 2021

The Feed Weekly - 9 Nov, 2021

This week on The Feed we talk about the supermarket market, Impossible Burger arriving in town and the consolidation of the pies market. Plus we've published a major feature by Ben Fahy on the role that food and beverage can and must play in the revival of the NZ tourism industry. Ben spoke to a number of experts, starting with the one and only Sarah Miekle, director of WOAP. Tash picks up on that conversation with Sarah this week's episode. 

Want a chance to win a copy of Dish's new cookbook Fast? Simply subscribe to The Feed Weekly newsletter at http://thefeed.co.nz


Nov 08, 202151:33
The Feed Weekly - 3rd November 2021

The Feed Weekly - 3rd November 2021

This week we discuss the historic free trade agreement with the UK, the new Covid traffic lights system, Sam Neill reluctantly putting his vineyard up for sale, the helping hand given to supermarkets -  and Tash talks to Sarah Tuck, editor of Dish magazine about the first ever Dish cookbook, a collection of their dishes. And coming up we’ve got even more giveaways for you, our Feed whānau.

Nov 02, 202139:01
The Feed Weekly - A Long Lunch with Isabel Pasch
Nov 02, 202136:31
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - October 15, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - October 15, 2021

WIN CHEESE PLEASE by visiting our Instagram profile and telling us who you would love to share a delicious NZ Cheese Hamper with. This week we’re talking about New Zealanders table manners as some of us get back out to dining out, the Waikato region has launched it’s own foodies campaign to get hospitality venues fully vaccinated, New Zealand is losing it’s global sauvignon blanc share to Brexit and covid woes and we talk to Becs Caughey of the fast becoming iconic brand Cook & Nelson about being in the business of food & beverage importing during a pandemic and how they’ve found their way to bringing unique premium brands to market in New Zealand - it’s a really great chat.


Oct 15, 202132:01
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - October 8, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - October 8, 2021

This week we're talking about NZ Cheese Month, the stoush over liquor in supermarkets, a looming worldwide coffee shortage and we meet the maker of the first 100%-NZ-made oat milk, Morgan Maw of the Boring Oat Milk Company.

We promo Tash's new book - the Guide to New Zealand Gin 2021 edition. Plus it's your last chance to subscribe to our newsletter to win a Cain & Abel knife so stay sharp and get into it at https://thefeed.co.nz

Oct 08, 202139:54
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 27, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 27, 2021

This week - we’re talking to Cherie Metcalfe - the powerhouse behind cult brands such as Pepper & Me, Kitco and now the newly launched Cain & Abel carbon steel knives. And we’re poised for level change announcements while the hospitality industry continues to lobby for additional support and innovation.

WIN: Subscribe to The Feed newsletter for the chance to win a brand new carbon steel knife at http://thefeed.co.nz and check out our new Op-ed.

Sep 26, 202129:51
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 13, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 13, 2021

This week we take a deep dive into the challenges of operating at level 2 Delta for the hard working people running our bars and restaurants. We also talk about our lockdown baking challenge and the purpose of pastry - a vessel for deliciousness. This episode features the voices of Richard Bagnall, Hamish Klein, Luke Dallow and Ofir Yudilevich.

Sep 13, 202130:40
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 3, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - September 3, 2021

This week we are talking alert level changes and impact on hospitality venues as they decide whether or not to give customers the takeaway choice, wine exports are falling but only because we’re overperforming, Feilding locals are feeding their essential worker and we ask the question - will ghost kitchens be the way of the future to reduce disruption and improve efficiency in a post-Covid world?

And for the main course, we're talking to hospitality operators about what choices they have to make going in and out of Level 3 and 4, how it impacts their staff and customers. 

Sep 03, 202137:58
The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - August 27, 2021

The Feed Weekly (Live from Lockdown) - August 27, 2021

This week we are talking about lockdown, lockdown, lockdown. We’re in it and so is most of the food sector. We talk about pressure on supermarkets, the call for butchers to open, the cancellation of the Wellington on a Plate and Metro Food Awards, positivity in the hospitality sector and our lockdown food challenge. Plus we talk to suppliers and distributors directly impacted by the Level 4 Lockdown - including Gus Tissick from Bidfresh Hamilton and Isabel Pasch from Bread & Butter. 

Aug 27, 202136:47
The Feed Weekly - August 17th 2021

The Feed Weekly - August 17th 2021

This week we are talking about booze & violence rules, exporting to Korea, the latest Lewis road collaboration and take a deep dive into gin making in Aotearoa with 1919 Distilling founder Soren Crabb. Plus we do the world’s fastest review of Beervana.

Aug 27, 202129:19
The Feed Weekly - August 10th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - August 10th, 2021

This week we are talking about concerns for wheat growers, record methane emissions from dairy industry, Aussies fighting for the right to brand manuka honey, the sad but seemingly inevitable demise of Bernadino Spumante.

Be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at http://thefeed.co.nz/ and enter your food workplace photos for a chance to win a brand new Samsung smartphone at http://thefeed.co.nz/win


Aug 09, 202139:18
The Feed Weekly - August 4th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - August 4th, 2021

This week we are talking about the same thing everyone is… the Commerce Commission draft report into competition in the grocery sector! And we’ll tell you about how peanut butter can help kids get into mentoring, the latest gin garden opening and all about Wellington’s big foodie festival. Then we dig into an altogether alternative milk story with Glen Herud from Happy Cow Milk. Subscribe to the The Best of The Feed Weekly at http://thefeed.co.nz and please rate and review this podcast.

Aug 04, 202128:25
The Feed Weekly - July 30th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - July 30th, 2021

This week we are talking about what ought to be in your shopping trolley, the upcoming commerce commission report into supermarket competition and a potentially controversial report about food insecurity and child poverty in New Zealand - this is not a chat to miss. We’ll also talk to one of New Zealand’s first bottled cocktail businesses in Wellington.


Subscribe to the The Best of The Feed Weekly at http://thefeed.co.nz

Rate and review this podcast. 

Jul 29, 202142:48
The Feed Weekly - July 20th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - July 20th, 2021

This week we discuss the farmer’s protests and what it means for the future of food producers in the country. We also catch up with the Choice Hospo bar build project and vegetable prices. Vincent interviews Angus Brown of Ārepa, a blackcurrant based nootropic drink that’s backed by science and is so successful he’s hoping to raise $5m for the next phase of growth in Australia and beyond.

Much more in this week's bumper newsletter so be sure to visit TheFeed.co.nz, subscribe, rate and review!

Jul 19, 202136:41
The Feed Weekly - July 13th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - July 13th, 2021

This week we’re talking about record breaking horticulture exports, eliminating palm oil from your favourite candy, new ways of making plant-based milk and we’re decidedly NOT talking about adding folic acid to bread because we’re over that debate. We’re also celebrating with the Gill family who last week passed the 30 year milestone of running their Little India restaurants with their family recipes.

If you’re following us on Instagram, you may have seen our first search for the Best kickoff last week! We’re on the hunt for The Best Burgers in your town - all over the country - so jump over to Instagram, give us a follow and tag your favourite burger joint so we can share the treasure with the world.

Jul 12, 202140:44
The Feed Weekly - July 6th, 2021

The Feed Weekly - July 6th, 2021

This week it’s time to talk about cheese prices, a new bio-security tool that could reduce the nutritional value of your food and a chaotic but inspiring challenge a hospitality collective in Auckland is taking on to help one small business bounce back from Covid. We’re also talking to Katie Jacobs who traded a career in luxury champagne and spirits to build a start up to help busy people grow more of their own food.

Love this show or simply keen to show your support? Give us 5 stars for the podcast and subscribe to the newsletter at thefeed.co.nz. We’re always grateful for your support. Talk to us at editor@thefeed.co.nz.

Jul 05, 202149:21
The Feed Weekly - June 29, 2021

The Feed Weekly - June 29, 2021

This week we look at an increase in excise taxes, the Outstanding NZ Food Producer awards, the NZ Spirits Awards and listen to the backstory of AF Drinks, the alcohol free brand created by Lisa King, of Eat My Lunch fame.

Big thanks for all of you who have joined us as subscribers to this podcast and our weekly email. Now is the perfect time to ask you to rate and review the podcast - we welcome your feedback and it helps others find this show.

Jun 28, 202154:34
The Feed Weekly - June 23, 2021

The Feed Weekly - June 23, 2021

This week we look at food waste, free trade deals and Clark Gayford’s piping skills. We discover the extraordinary origin of donuts. Tash digs deep into some of the long-term challenges the hospitality industry faces in a chat with David Neville, a chef and consultant with 25 years experience in the food industry.

And a big thanks for all of you who have joined us as subscribers to this podcast and our weekly email. Now is the perfect time to ask you to rate and review the podcast - we welcome your feedback and it helps others find this show.

Jun 23, 202137:16