When you hear people talk about World War III do you typically envision nuclear armed superpowers slinging nukes at hordes of robot soldiers until human civilization is blasted into a post-apocalyptic desert? Or maybe you imagine something akin to the last World War with millions of soldiers fighting on every continent and in every domain.

My guest today argues that in reality, World War III may have already started and it’s not what we typically imagine.

Joseph Epstein is the Legislative Analyst at the Endowment for Middle East Truth (EMET), a Washington DC think tank, and is an expert on foreign policy, terrorism, and the Middle East. In a fascinating discussion that starts with the war in Gaza, we broaden the scope to consider one of Epstein’s many articles exploring the possibility that World War III has already begun, and we discuss its different dimensions and implications for US policy.

Rather than an all-consuming conflict, Epstein argues that this current “World War” is being fought in the “gray zone” - a domain just below the threshold of declared war where countries seek to preserve plausible deniability and avoid direct conflict while still inflicting harm on their adversary. Think America “fighting” Russia by arming Ukraine, or Iran “fighting” Israel through its region-wide network of terror proxies. Gray zone tactics also emerge in the information domain in the form of propaganda and information warfare, and in economics via sanctions and heightened trade barriers.

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Episode 2: What's the Difference Between Politics and Government?