Economics for Rebels

It is often argued that it was market-based capitalism that made agriculture so efficient that it enabled the eradication of hunger globally. This claim is shadowed by the incredible environmental degradation that was caused by industrial agriculture in the last centuries. Hence, due demand arises that we should keep the world fed through sustainable means. Our guest today, Pablo Tittonell claims that this is possible through agroecology where we combine agricultural and ecological knowledge to create food while taking care of nature’s amazingly creative and generous provisioning and regenerative systems. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Ecological economists need to pull all sorts of leverage points to enable a just future in which the economy flourishes within planetary boundaries. One of the leverage points that is receiving increasing attention is climate and nature litigation. But what do we as community need to know about climate litigation, historical responsibility for climate change, and how litigation works in practice? We welcome Dr Benjamin Franta onto the show to discuss all things related to climate litigation. Ben is the founder and director of the climate litigation lab at the Smith School for Enterprise and the Environment at the University of Oxford. Hosted by Sophus zu Ermgassen. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Today’s guest, Robert Costanza is hardly unknown to anyone who is vaguely familiar with ecological economics. While we could fill entire seasons discussing the topics he has covered in his works, in this episode we are discussing his latest book: Addicted to Growth: Societal Therapy for a Sustainable Wellbeing Future where he applies the analogy of addiction to our contemporary problems. Humanity is addicted to economic growth and like true addicts, even if we accept that it is ruining us by fuelling climate change, mass extinction and a wide range of social crises, we don’t want to quit. With today’s guest, we discuss if and how we can find the appropriate therapy to collectively come off the substance. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Some key mainstream critiques of postgrowth economics revolve around labour, and what the labour market would look like in a postgrowth economy, with the common perception being that economic contraction tends to be associated with unemployment, and therefore that a postgrowth economy is socially unsustainable. But, if we are to transition to a postgrowth world for ecological reasons or because of secular stagnation, ecological economics needs to present a compelling story about what people’s jobs and lives could look like in this world. This episode’s guest Dr Ben Gallant is an expert in understanding and modelling postgrowth futures for the labour force, here to guide us through what employment in a postgrowth economy could look like. Hosted by Sophus zu Ermgassen. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Over the last decades, burning wood for energy has expanded in the EU, as have proposals for implementing Bioenergy with Carbon Capture and Storage (BECCS). The origins of this questionable boom can be found in accounting loopholes, which allow burning woody biomass to be classed as carbon neutral and BECCS as carbon negative. Based on these loopholes and large lobby power, (woody) biomass has received generous subsidies and been counted towards renewable energy targets in the EU. A large international supply chain has developed, with wood pellets being shipped all the way from forests in the U.S. Southeast to generate energy in the EU. In this episode, we discuss all these issues with ecologist Dr. Mary Booth, founder and director of the Partnership for Policy Integrity (PFPI). PFPI is a small non-profit organisation in the US working on forest biomass, energy, and climate issues. Hosted by Matilda Susan Gettins. Edited by Aidan Knox.

When it comes to environmental issues, it is crucial that policymakers rely on scientific evidence, while scientists become conscious of how important it is to provide relevant and comprehensive information on their work to policymakers. In our ambiguous post-truth world, this is no trivial challenge. Today’s guest, Eszter Kelemen tells us about the current state of affairs in science-policy interface and the challenges that this encumbered liaison poses not just to both sides but to environmental policy-making in general. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Ecological economics has a long tradition of disputing the mainstream economic view that people’s concern for the environment scales with income, and that it’s a luxury good. The main counterargument is the widespread evidence on environmental justice conflicts, encapsulated by what Joan Martinez-Alier called the ‘environmentalism of the poor’. Today, we focus on the role and importance of people working on the front lines of environmental degradation – biosphere defenders. Our guest today is Dr Claudia Ituarte-Lima. Hosted by Sophus zu Ermgassen. Edited by Aidan Knox.

When we say, “Money cannot buy conscience”, in today’s economy, we could not be further from the truth. Our current economy can turn absolutely anything into financial assets. Even irresponsible behaviour. A company that is incapable of reducing its carbon emission can just buy carbon credits and continue business-as-usual. Another that is about to ruin a habitat can offset its wrongdoing by paying money to someone else to save another habitat somewhere else. While these solutions may make bad behaviour slightly more costly, they do not stop them. Moreover, they contribute significantly to neocolonialism. Today’s guest, Frederic Hache explains us how these nature markets work and how they turn environmental policies into gambling casinos.

There are huge inequalities in the world when it comes to releasing carbon into the atmosphere. Some countries have disproportionately contributed to the climate crisis and keep aggravating their climate debt. In the language of climate coloniality, these countries could owe reparation payments to low-emitting nations. But can we calculate who owes whom how much? And should we calculate it? Today’s guest, Andrew Fanning together with Jason Hickel recently published a paper aiming to answer these questions. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

The myth of green growth surrounds us wherever we look. Eco-modernisation’s promise that technological fixes will provide us with the efficiency we need to decouple environmental burdens from economic growth suggests that business-as-usual can continue. Today’s guest Timothée Parrique is the best to explain why this is not happening and why relying solely on technological solutions is like betting on green zero in roulette. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

There’s a long history of states solving major social challenges through ambitious and mission-driven public policy, such as getting a person on the moon, or the foundation of the UK’s national health service. But the last few decades have seen declines in the ambition and entrepreneurship of the state, at a time when global sustainability challenges have called for more and better leadership. How did this happen, why is this a problem for implementing policies consistent with the goals of ecological economics, and what can we do about it? In this episode we discuss these themes with Rosie Collington, the author alongside Prof Mariana Mazzucato of The Big Con: How the Consulting Industry Weakens our Businesses, Infantilizes our Governments and Warps our Economies. Rosie is a political economist at the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at UCL, studying how governments can develop the ability to govern socio-economic transformations. Hosted by Sophus zu Ermgassen. Edited by Aidan Knox.

The world as we know it now is built on a history of colonisation and even today massive parts of the world are being economically and culturally colonised. Our guest today, Roland Nkwain Ngam believes that hegemonic capitalism is both the creator and consequence of the brutal exploitation of black, brown and white bodies, women’s backs, nature and all the commons that we were all meant to enjoy equally. As the ecological crisis we are witnessing today is a direct consequence of hegemonic capitalism, we need ways to overcome it in a manner that it repairs rather than deepens these injustices. But can it be done? And if yes, how? Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Currently markets determine most of what happens around us. But markets have no morals: everything is up for grabs. If you have the money, you can turn wetlands, forests, or any other biodiversity rich areas into mono-cultural agricultural lands, human habitats, or mines in the name of development. But can we and should we compensate this by making the developers pay for biodiversity conservation somewhere else? This is the central question around biodiversity offsetting and in his research, Sophus zu Ermgassen has been keen to understand if it is possible to design nature markets in a way that satisfies both ecological and financial objectives, and if not, what the alternative is. Sophus co-hosted Season 2 of Economics for Rebels and has asked his guests many exciting questions. In this opening episode to Season 3 we get to hear Sophus also as a guest. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Today’s show is one for the ecological economics lecturers out there – it’s about the joy of teaching ecological economics, the ‘aha’ moments when your students see the world in a new way, and how to teach really really well. We welcome Corinne Baulcomb onto the show, Director of one of Europe’s largest EE programmes at SRUC/University of Edinburgh, sharing her experiences over the last decade of teaching EE’s beautiful ideas to the next generation of thinkers.

Various global initiatives have emerged to try to address the degradation of the living world, but despite decades of implementation we’ve had limited success at changing that trajectory. Why? Dr Niak Koh is a sustainability scientist based at the Stockholm Resilience Centre at Stockholm University. In some of her recent work, Niak has focused on what biodiversity agreements can learn from the implementation of international human rights agreements, which have historically been more successful. So, what are the secrets behind better international agreements? Hosted by Sophus zu Ermgassen. Edited by Aidan Knox.

It is now well-established that contemporary society has finite ecological constraints, and massive inequality in wealth, wellbeing and carbon consumption. But how is the consumption of our shared ecological space distributed across society, and what’s the ecological efficiency through which today’s economy generates improvements in wellbeing? In this episode host, Sophus zu Ermgassen welcomes Dr Marta Baltruszewicz, who has led some fascinating research empirically exploring interlinkages between energy consumption, inequality and wellbeing in the UK.

The fundamental purpose of ecological economics is to deliver an economy that achieves high living standards for all within the constraints of the Earth system. There is arguably no economic sector which is more consequential for this vision than the food system, and perhaps the greatest sustainability challenge of the coming decades is the question of how to deliver quality nutrition for all, whilst minimising the biodiversity and carbon impacts of one of the most ecologically impactful sectors. Join today's host, Sophus zu Ermgassen and guest Mike Clark guiding us through the ecological economics of food. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Ecological economics is all about staying within planetary boundaries while providing prosperity for all. This, however, means that we desperately need to transcend both our growth-centred worldview and our fully growth-dependent economic and social systems. The solutions proposed by ecological economics cover messages of true political nature. While bottom-up initiatives are incredibly important in this transition, drastic top-down policy changes would make a massive difference. Our guest today, Tim Jackson is most certainly among those top ecological economists who are in constant liaison with policymakers trying to influence their decisions to move towards beyond growth institutions. In today’s podcast host Alexandra Köves is asking him, just how far is this concept beyond the political rationale for today’s decision-makers? Edited by Aidan Knox.

Talking about ecological economics often invokes the mentioning of limits. Ecological and social limits to growth are often brought up in the context where we need to respect these external boundaries and restrain ourselves accordingly. Today’s guest, Giorgos Kallis in his book Limits puts forward an unusual but compelling argument that instead of seeing a world where human wants are unlimited and the environment limits them, we should start seeing a world where human desires are limited, and the ecological environment is abundant. While his line of thought is unorthodox in so many ways, understanding it should be essential to all those who are concerned about our growth-frantic world. Hosted by Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

A key focus of ecological economics is studying the role of energy in the economy. What role does energy play in economic production? What happens when the economy becomes more energy efficient? What fundamental relationships do the IPCC decarbonisation models get wrong, that leads to radically different visions for how to decarbonise our economies? Join us with Dr Paul Brockway who has spent much of the last decade thinking about the decarbonisation of energy systems for a guide through what ecological economists need to know about energy. Edited by Aidan Knox.

In our podcast series we have already covered many different perspectives on the necessary transformation of the monetary system to establish an ecologically sustainable and socially just world. Our guest today, Joe Ament argues that thinking about money differently allows us to think differently about sustainability. Much of our worldview on money is that it is a commodity and is therefore limited. Thinking instead that money is a social relation allows us to think of it as something not physical and hence, abundant. Edited by Aidan Knox.

As of 2020, the physical mass of all the world’s man-made structures exceeded that of all the world’s living things. And there’s raw materials – sand and construction minerals - at the heart of these structures, but we rarely notice them, or think about where they come from. In this episode we speak with Dr Aurora Torres, one of the leading experts in the sustainability implications of society’s hunger for sand and construction minerals, and explore the ecological economics of the sand supply networks that underpin most of contemporary society. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Herman Daly, one of the founders of ecological economics, died on the 28th of October 2022 at the age of 84. His work questioning the pursuit of economic growth and articulating the alternative of a steady-state economy, has been foundational to sustainability science. Daly observed that mainstream economics completely omits the natural world and in reality, the economy is not an isolated system, but a subsystem of the biosphere. All of the resources used by the economy come from the environment, and all of the wastes produced by it return to the environment. Hence, economic activity can be analysed not only in terms of flows of money, but also in terms of flows of biophysical resources and social outcomes. Moreover, the finitude of the biosphere implies that there are limits to how large the physical economy within it can grow. Daly argued that we have in fact moved from an “empty world” to a “full world”. In this end of year episode we are paying tribute to Herman Daly. Alexandra Köves talks to Dan O'Neill, the President of the European Society for Ecological Economics in an episode that covers not just an incredibly rich life's work but most of the basic concepts of ecological economics. Edited by Aidan Knox.

There’s one huge structural driver of unsustainability that ecological economists rarely talk about, is fiendishly complex, and deliberately opaque in part to avoid accountability. We’re talking about the financial sector. So we’re happy to welcome Katie Kedward onto the show to help talk us all through the key basics. Katie is a Research Fellow in Sustainable Finance at the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose at UCL, and we cover issues spanning the role of different actors throughout the financial sector, the limitations of current approaches to reduce its climate and biodiversity impacts, and the role of the state in shaping finance so it works for society. There were some technical difficulties in the recording so apologies for a small change in audio quality during the course of the interview. Sound quality rescued by Editor Aidan Knox.

Ecological economics is about finding ways to achieve environmental and social justice in our sustainability transitions. However, justice is a fragile and ambiguous concept, and it is in the eye of the beholder where it gains meaning. Colonialism did not end with previously colonialised countries gaining their freedom. It lives on in our global culture, economy, social processes and in the perception of self-worth in all of us. Science is no exception. Knowledge production is still vastly biased towards Western, masculine, often cartesian values. As transformation is only likely to be successful if we transcend currently dominant paradigms, decolonising knowledge production is key not only in terms of justice but also in terms of finding adequate solutions. In this episode our guest, Brototi Roy - ecological economist, political ecologist and Degrowth researcher from the Autonomous University of Barcelona and Central European University - sheds light on why. She is talking to Alexandra Köves. Edited by Aidan Knox.

In this episode we discuss the history of how neoclassical economics achieved its hegemonic dominance, and the rise of ecological economics as a coherent alternative to the neoclassical paradigm, which is the main focus of Prof Erickson’s new book The Progress Illusion. We pick up stories along the course of Prof Erickson’s journey from neoclassically-trained environmental economist at Cornell, through discussing the emerging concept of natural capital during the fall of Pinochet in Chile, to running one of the world’s most influential ecological economics academic centres. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Scientists have been warning about the dangers of climate change for decades, but with little success at convincing society to slow the rate of greenhouse gas emissions. Why? What is wrong with the conventional academic’s theory of change, that providing information to key stakeholders will enable more effective climate policymaking? These questions have been central to Dr Charlie Gardner’s career and development, and this conversation tracks his experiences moving from a leading Conservation Scientist in Madagascar working right on the frontier of biodiversity loss, through to being one of the leading figures in Scientist Rebellion. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Time and again neoliberal techno-capitalism has demonstrated an inability to address global challenges such as the climate crisis. Two movements, which have been called Green Anarchy and Eco Socialism, share a similar urgency and critique on the role techno-capitalism and fossil capital are playing in global ecocide, but there are substantial differences between them. Green Anarchists and other “small is beautiful” advocates aspire to empower local communities through mutual aid in a decentralized response to societal and ecological collapse, while those who identify as Eco-Socialists are focused more on harnessing the coercive power of the state for a centralized intervention that will transform society at national and ultimately international scales. Acknowledging that both perspectives have a substantial diversity of views within them, this debate focuses on the essential differences, including scale and tactics to transform society, between the communitarian/anarchist and more centralized socialist approaches. This special edition of Economics for Rebels is a recording of a panel discussion exploring these two potentially opposing points of view, Green anarchism and Eco Socialism organised by Mark McCaffrey, debated by Benjamin Sovacool and Matthew T. Huber and facilitated by Alexandra Köves. The discussion was held online live to an audience. Edited by Aidan Knox.

Economies organised around growth experience terrible welfare outcomes when growth rates decline, leading postgrowth economics to study mechanisms for mitigating these impacts. Two of the biggest challenges to postgrowth economics are debt and inequality, both of which are conventionally addressed through economic growth. So how can we study these questions empirically, given economies have consistently been growing since the industrial revolution? Today’s interviewee is Dr Tilman Hartley, an ecological economist and economic historian whose work has explored how pre-industrial, low- or no-growth societies dealt with these major economic challenges. Whilst today’s growth-oriented societies seem inevitable now, we often forget that the majority of human civilisations throughout history experienced almost no economic growth – so there’s rich data out there, if you know where to look.

Edited by Aidan Knox

To see ecological economics implemented in practice at the kind of scale needed to remain within the planet’s safe operating space, ecological economists need to effectively communicate and win the public battle of ideas that underpin what policy paths countries go down. Today’s interviewee is our host Alexandra Köves, who has been publicly communicating the ideas of ecological economics for years as the host of both this show but also one of Hungary’s most popular science podcasts. She talks to the show's new co-host, Sophus Zu Ermgassen. We talk about the narratives that ecological economics can use that appeal best to the public, and the general attitudes towards ecological economics in Hungary. Alexandra’s work has revealed a surprising pattern: when different groups of people are encouraged to envision their ideal future, their vision consistently aligns with the vision of a just and sustainable society aligned with the goals of ecological economics. How can we appeal to the hidden ecological economist in all of us?

Edited by Aidan Knox

No doubt that ecological economics is about inducing radical change in the world. While that is almost never up for debate in these circles, just how radical is radical remains to be a highly divisive issue. Environmentalist movements had been seen in the past rather peaceful and being rebellious as an ecological economist is more about strongly attacking the current order. In theory. But can profound change really happen without blowing up a pipeline? Today’s guest, Andreas Malm argues that it cannot. Andreas is a climate activist, author, and associate professor of human ecology at Lund University, Sweden. In his work he often argues that those with vested interests in the current world order will not just turn green out of kindness of the heart. Movements that induced radical change in power structures in the past such as feminism or the anti-apartheid rebels only achieved their aims when they turned away from just symbolic moves. In his latest book, How to blow up a pipeline: Learning to fight in a world on fire he argues that ecological movements remain unsuccessful as they only consider peaceful means to achieve radical change.

Many believe that wanting the best for both the environment and humans just makes sense. However, when we introduce ecological economics concepts of providing good life for all within planetary boundaries, the most vicious problem that we face is to do with power structures. This episode’s guest, Bengi Akbulut has been arguing that our current understanding of development is detrimental to real change and development is most often just a way to maintain the power structures. Can we change this? Can we pluralise development? Or should we just abandon the concept?

Ecological economists all over the world attempt to find the right paths to transcend our currently unsustainable and unjust economic practices. Some are more radical in their proposed measures than others. Today’s guest, Anitra Nelson argues that „monetary values and activities are the key stumbling block to us achieving socio-political and economic justice and sustainability on Earth”. Hence, she proposes to do away with money altogether.

Degrowth is a research field and a social movement that aims to transcend the primacy of economic growth and transition societies to an ecologically more sustainable and socially more just world. Overcoming our environmental sustainability hurdles through mainstream approaches like eco-modernisation does not even try to tackle the problems of social injustices like inequality. Our guest, Jason Hickel argues that the root of environmental and social problems is the same and through Degrowth we can address both of them at the same time. In this episode we talk about the solutions suggested by Degrowth to both sustainability and more equality.

In a world where we acknowledge ecological boundaries, consumption patterns must change. Many ecological economists would argue that not only the way we consume but the way we work must also change. Leaving behind the overriding aim of economic growth at all costs means that work needs not only to be perceived differently but also distributed differently. A common suggestion that occurs in these discussions is the necessary reduction of working hours. Stefanie Gerold explains us why.

More and more of the rich and famous are taking up climate activism and try to convince the world that we all need to act now. But what is their message? Ecological economics is about realising that business-as-usual no longer works. Instead of techno-optimism, we need real system change. But what exactly are climate elites saying? What is the role of philanthropy in climate politics? And how does this all feed into sustainability transitions? Do they help our cause or just defer fundamental change? Today’s guest, Edouard Morena helps us figure this all out.

To stay within planetary boundaries, our consumption patterns must change. Could a provocative term like sustainable hedonism help us transform ourselves and our economic realities  towards ecological sustainability while still insisting that we can live a good life? Today’s guest, Orsolya Lelkes certainly believes so.

Since the establishment of agricultural societies, humans have turned themselves into a super-organism that is now jeopardising not only its own existence but also the survival of many other species. Our capacity to organise ourselves, to divide labour, to even sacrifice individual gains for the benefits of humanity has trapped us in a system that is expansionary and full of co-dependencies. The jury is still out whether we can turn this around and once again become just one of the species that occupy this Earth. Today’s guest Lisi Krall explains us what ultrasociality is. Look out for her new book entitled Better harvest: Inquiry into the war between economy and the Earth coming out in Spring 2022.

Ecological economics is highly critical of mainstream economic thinking and provides new approaches and new solutions to how we could transform our world. However, currently millions of young economists leave their education without even the slightest chance of realising that what they had been offered is a mere indoctrination with mainstream ideas without real critical thinking or alternatives. Today’s guest is J. Christopher Proctor, and we talk about Rethinking Economics and other student movements that demand plurality in economics education.

Ecological economics is a field that historically evolved from discourses of people from many disciplines. Finally, ecologists and economists were in dialogue with each other on how to transform the world to respect planetary boundaries. Today’s guest Clive Spash argues, however, that “the importance of social, political, ethical and institutional factors is something which ecologists are not trained to detect, and economists are trained to neglect”. The way forward can only be social ecological economics where the necessity of human behavioural change is not overlooked. With Clive Spash we talk about humans, values, structures, institutions, politics, science and rebellions in social ecological economics.

Not extracting more resources than what Earth can sustainably provide means that our consumption patterns must also change. However, even common sense suggests that if we put caps on resource use, the question “who can use how much of what” will become pressing. Today’s guest is Beth Stratford, and we will talk about the necessity to diffuse rentier power and redistribute economic rents to mitigate threats of economic instability, inequality and insecurity that could otherwise arise from scaling down our consumption.

The relevance of Karl Polányi’s insights on social and economic transformation to ecological transformations has long been established. At the core of Polányi’s work were the processes that drive the relationship between state and market, namely commodification and decommodification, particularly the three fictitious commodities of land, labour and money. Understanding decommodification in the heart of the ecological crisis is of vital importance as no ecological sustainability can be achieved when commodifying nature, and no social sustainability is possible when commodifying humans. Today’s guest is Peadar Kirby and Logan Stranchock and we will talk about decommodification not just in theory but also in practice.

Ecological economics is about finding ways to transform our societies to move onto an environmentally and socially sustainable path. Many of the criticisms ecological economists express and the solutions they advocate can be rooted back to Karl Polanyi whose book The Great Transformation provided a well-argued case against mainstream economics already in the 1940s.  Today’s guests are Pedar Kirby and Logan Strenchock and we will talk about using Polányi’s insights for a sustainability transition.

We need to become true guardians of natural resources, while ensuring well-being for people. Let us accept for a moment that we know exactly what we should do in order to transit into an environmentally and socially more just economy. One of the most interesting question that follows is who is going to take the first step? Policy-makers and corporate leaders often point to individuals as consumers to make the right choice, while individuals expect decision-makers to free up avenues to be more conscious citizens. However, these decisions are socially constructed, constrained and institutions significantly influence them. This episode's guest is Arild Vatn, who talks to Alexandra Köves about environmental governance.

Ecological economics is about reducing economic throughput to stay within ecological boundaries. In our dominant mainstream thinking, what we produce, how and at what price is determined by market forces. In theory markets also influence our access to goods and services when determining our salary incomes through the labour market. Innovations are made available through the financial markets. Everything can be determined by supply and demand while none of these models take into account ecological impacts or social justice. When in ecological economics we introduce the concept of a finite planet, these models no longer work. What could replace them? Today’s guest is Louison Cahen-Fourot, and we will talk about ecological macroeconomics.

Ecological economics is about respecting ecological boundaries in human activities. Many argue that this simply cannot be done as humans always strive for more. However, with a different perspective on what living well means, energy and resource use could decrease to fit into Earth’s carrying capacity. That requires a change in mentality as well as a deeper understanding of justice. This episode’s guest is Julia Steinberger, and we talk about what it would mean for humankind to live well while respecting the nature's limited resources.