Outer Circle Inner Stillness

Contains explicit content - language, brief descriptions of war

Sobriety is challenging, even in the best of times for well-resourced civilians. Some folks struggle more, among them, our armed forces.

Soldiers in all branches of the military face a kind of stress that can only truly be understood by another soldier. Returning veterans carry unique burdens that can seem frightening and mysterious to those observing. Imagine what they are like for the people carrying them!

We can observe that addiction, particularly compulsive sexual behavior, is common among the armed forces and veteran population. One can wonder why this is. We know that war changes people. But how much? Does war cause a person to be more likely to develop an addiction? Or is it that people more pre-disposed to addiction are also more likely to join the military? How do traumatic brain injuried(TBIs) factor into the problem?

Most of all, how do we help our soldiers come home and heal?

Conrad Lipic is a veteran, an individual in recovery, and a recovery counselor and coach with specialization in treating compulsive sexual behaviors. He offers insights from his experiences, and invites us to consider hard and necessary questions. Finally, he provides suggestions and considerations for those helpers who want to support our armed forces as they learn to heal, connect, and thrive.

Christian Gonzalez and Rhys Pasimio bring together clinical expertise, a shared love of Internal Family Systems, and the traditions of the Orthodox Church into one conversation about how to cultivate a healthy inner life.

Our center is on the person of Jesus Christ, but we talk about the difference between an intellectual understanding that may or may not make sense, and a tangible daily lived experience. 

Orthodoxy offers a “Beautiful healing way to live, versus just a right way of thinking. When we consider Orthodox spiritual practice, combined with the best of reflection skills from the psychotherapy world, we discover a way to experience healing, transformation, and the goodness of God here and now, in the body!

We again compare and contrast the language of “Parts” language Internal Family Systems and how Orthodoxy talks about the Passions. We reflect on our own experiences of learning to be gentle with, even praying for our wounded parts, and in this way finding more freedom than by endlessly criticizing ourselves.

Overall, we emphasize that Christianity is a way of life, one that is practiced daily. As counselors, we have access to even more tools to help us sustain the life giving practices. And all of this becomes possible in compassionate relationships with each other, and with a clear focus on Christ.

In discussing Lenten practices, we examine how asceticism factors into a spiritual practice, and caution against “The fourth taco.” 

Kevin Roberts is a husband, father, business owner, and a sub-deacon in the Orthodox Church. 

In today’s conversation, Rhys and Kevin discuss the meaning of commitment in the spiritual life. We reflect on how a person is shaped by the commitments the make, the relationships they maintain, and the life-long vocations they undertake. We reflect on being drawn to monasticism, but learning to know the presence of God in the midst of hectic family life. We talk about how submitting to authority, and allowing our most important relationships to impact and shape us is life-giving and centering. 

Our conversation happens in the midst of Great Lent - a season of fasting and extra spiritual rigors. In light of this, we reflect on seasons of desert and struggle and feeling lost in the spiritual life, the sobriety life, family life, and life in general. We reflect on how being in a desert does not mean you have failed…it’s just part of how you grow.

If Bible College was the crucible, then monasticism is daily crucifixion…and we’re glad to be here.

Sister Lisa’s journey has taken her from Protestant Bible College, to Roman Catholicism, to becoming a nun, to founding a new monastic order in the wilds of Arizona. 

Here, she and Rhys discuss the spiritual life, the sobriety life, and what we can learn from the monastic traditions. We explore how silence, the inner life, mindfulness, the nous, and daily entering a silent pause are all concepts that offer us clues about how to anchor our lives to something healing and meaningful, even in the midst of a very strenuous vocation. We talk about daily sacrifices, and why we need clear goals in order to continue making them. We talk about the importance of consistency, and of community, in developing the spiritual life. We talk about how a daily pause begins to reorient our whole lives. 

When embarking on a long spiritual journey, we need anchors, to be grounded and to remember why we make the sacrifices we do. We find that the anchor is the pause - the daily slowing down, entering the silence, and listening.

We are driven by our loves, and our loves are shown by the things we actually do every day.

In all things, we remember that no matter how we struggle, we are not alone.

Sister Lisa offers the sobriety tip - “When we say no something, we automatically say yes to something else.” Therefore, we must be very intentional about directing our “Yes” to something good.

Listen along, and let us know what you think!

How should “Creatures of the senses” manage their appetites? Here I talk with Abbot Tryphon about sobriety. We talk about the relationship between a person and their drug, the dangers of too much free time, the influence of our family systems upon us, and why running is good for sobriety. We talk about the importance of beginning the day focused on the faith, why men need bond with each other, hugging redwoods, and the time Abbot Tryphon was mistaken for John Lennon.

So then, what can we learn about sobriety from a monk? Healing and growth center on a full-life transformation. Sobriety, just like faith, is a life-long journey, that’s meant to be undertaken in close fellowship with others. Our bodies matter, therefore we should get outside, exercise, eat well, and not waste away on a screen. Above all, we should never lose hope, never give up, and always keep our focus on the Heavenly Kingdom and the One who heals our souls.

Listen along, and let us know what you think!

More monastic wisdom, more stories, more Abbot Tryphon! In the 2nd of 3 interviews, I continue asking Abbot Tryphon about the Orthodox faith, the inner life, and what people in recovery can learn from people in monasteries. We talk about continual learning and why we need mentors, sponsors, and spiritual fathers. We talk about why we need to read and permeate our lives in spiritual wisdom. We talk about icon, but also by “being pushy” is the worst thing we can do as Orthodox Christians. Above all, we talk about how Christianity, like sobriety, cannot be an “add-on” to life - it can’t be done part-time; it has to be the central focus. 

Listen along, and let us know what you think!

What can we learn about the inner life from Orthodox Christian Monasticism? I wanted to find out, so one beautiful day in November, I made my way up to All Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island, Washington, there to speak with Abbot Tryphon.

From the Lutheran tradition, to secular universities, to the field of psychology, to chaplaincy, to Orthodox Christanity, and from Portland, Oregon to San Francisco to Southern Oregon to the Puget Sound, Abbot Tryphon has seen many things, learned many more, and has a story for all of them. In our series of interviews, he tells of his life growing up, his education, the power of love, the power of the home life, major challenges facing today’s youth, what he’s learned through physical fitness, through psychology, what ultimately brought him to the Orthodox Faith, why reading about the faith isn’t enough, and why we need community. Some of his ideas are extreme(which is normal from the monastic world) but his bearing is gentle. Sit with him a while and you see that he deeply cares about people and wants to see them growing and thriving in the faith.

Listen along, and let us know what you think!

How is recovery like Barbecue Sauce, and what does this have to do with 9th century Church Fathers? And what’s the deal with the first 3-5 years of recovery anyway?

In today’s episode, Rhys Pasimio and Shea Layton team up to interview CSAT counselor Dan Stephens, the founder of Restored Life Counseling, and developer of the long term Recovery Outcomes research project.

A traditionally held understanding within addictions recovery work is that a good, solid, successful recovery process takes 3-5 years. While many can intuitively and anecdotally say this is true, empirical research is limited…so Dan is working to supply it.

Rhys, Dan, and Shea take an hour to unpack questions like what is recovery anyway? How long does it take? What are the essential priorities to address within the first three years? How is early recovery like and unlike spiritual growth? 

All coming from different Christian traditions, we conceptualize addiction as coming out of deep desires that can only ultimately be fulfilled by God…but get turned towards other things, often with devastating results. We talk about how desire itself is not bad, , and many of the things we desire are good…but we desire them in wrong ways. 

Shea says, “We see everything according to our cravings.”

As we conceive of recovery as a whole-life transformation to be more in the likeness of Christ, Dan says we can measure sobriety success by asking, “What is the measurable participation in restoration?”

Shea reflects on wisdom of the church fathers like St. Maximus the Confessor, and reminds us that, “You can’t over come [sin or addiction] just by hating it. You have to see the beauty, like Christ [would].” 

We talk about how mere abstinence is a good start, but a very incomplete process. True transformation and healing happen when we struggle to attain the good and the beautiful, to find our purpose, and live our values, and fill our lives with good things, the ultimate of which is God.

So you got clean and sober - great! …Now what?

How does a person transition from the excitement and upheaval of early recovery into a more stable long-term recovery? What do you do in long term sobriety when the comfort of stability starts to feel like the tortures of boredom? How does a person find their most important values, and the community to support them?

Stephen Grant is a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist, and a Relational Therapist, at Gracefall Counseling in Vancouver, Washington. He draws on his experiences as a counselor, and many more experiences in recovery, to share stories and insights into how to survive - and thrive - through the many seasons of sobriety life.

Stephen and Rhys talk about what Relational Therapy is, and how the basics of emotional attunement and active listening never get old. We talk about how sobriety is much more than just stopping an unhealthy behavior; sobriety is all about finding new things to do, new purpose, and living into a marvelous vision for our lives. 

What does a person need most in order to heal from addiction and trauma?

Do they need to act differently?

Think better thoughts?

Use a fancy technology to monitor brain waves?

All these things are good and useful, but they falter in the absence of love.

Love, in a clinical sense, is a secure attachment, marked by full attention, unconditional welcome, curiosity, courage and patience. In the presence of this kind of energy, a person finds belonging and safety. In that environment, they become able to do things like think about their thoughts, and begin to think different thoughts, and eventually do different behaviors. 

Zach Guzman is a counselor and neurofeedback specialist in Colorado Spring, CO, and the founder of Mind Reneural, a healing clinic in his town with specialties in neurofeedback. In our conversation, Zach provides a succinct introduction to neurofeedback, how it works, and how it can help us heal.

Neurofeedback works in an adjacent realm to attachment and co-regulation. When a person feels truly safe, truly welcomed, and truly connected, there is nearly limitless potential to the insight and healing that can be accomplished. In order for this process to take place, though, we need a trusted other. That trusted other may include the neurofeedback setup, but even without the technology, the experience of fully encountering another human being is always remarkable.

From there, we dive into concepts ranging from recovery and sobriety, the vital importance of community and attachment, practices of spirituality, and how we have respectively come to understand what it means to be loved by Christ. 

We discuss how our thoughts become our realities. But when our thoughts are driven by fear, and black and white thinking, our thinking is limited, thus our reality is skewed. When our thoughts are driven by love, by courage, and supported by trustworthy connections, we are much more likely to have a true sense of the world. 

When a person is recovering from alcohol abuse, we generally advise them to avoid the beer and wine aisles in the markets. When a person is recovering from cocaine or meth use, or other drugs, we generally advise them to avoid that one street corner or back alley, or few blocks of downtown. When a person is in recovery from problem gambling, we’d find it wise for them to avoid casinos.

If the pattern holds, then when a person is in recovery from problematic pornography use, we should advise them to avoid the internet…

…but for younger folks, millennials, Gen-Z, and tech natives, we might as well ask them to pluck out their eyes. 

Tech natives are those people who have never known a world without the internet. Much if not all of their social lives, jobs, dating, and recreation takes place online. To a large degree, they experience their world through a screen, not as an aberration or a novelty or some new-fangled thing, but as the norm.

When this norm also becomes a vehicle to compulsive use of pornography, what do we do with this?

The problem isn’t limited to younger people. There are older folks as well who, may have had internet-less childhoods, but in adult hood, have built their lives around the internet. Minimally, we have people working entirely from home - through a computer screen. Often these individuals are alone in a room, alone in a house, or sometimes even alone in an office building for many hours a day. The nature of their livelihoods drives them away from in-person connections.

Isolation like this is prime breeding ground for addictive and compulsive behaviors. 

If the job is stressful, the drive to seek escape through digital self-soothing is even greater.

So then for these folks who are driven to isolation, day after day, who also struggle with compulsive pornography use, what is the solution?

Is the problem the internet? A hyper-object offering both a person’s basic needs, and their primary vices?

Or is the problem with the young people? A whole generation conditioned to see this level of technology as normal?

Or is the problem with the older people? Folks who knew the world before the internet and can have an instinctive appreciation for simply enjoying non-screen peace and quiet. 

Or is the problem the current, capitalist job market that demands people compromise any number of personal values to capture the sustaining dollar?

Sako Barbarian is a counselor at the Begin Again Institute in Colorado who specializes in recovery from compulsive sexual behaviors and problematic pornography use. He works closely with internet culture and the people trying to make their way in it, especially the Millenial and generations and those who have never known a world without the internet. He and I discuss the challenges facing today’s “Tech Natives,” the role of technology in our lives, and why compassion and connection are the things that save us and our sobriety.

People tend towards two errors. They think they have to be SO unique and special…or they think they have to conform to all the standards around them. Hyper-individualism, uniqueness taken to its extreme, will leave people feeling isolated, burdened, and vulnerable to relapse. Hyper-conformity, especially to unhealthy group and society expectations, can also steer a person towards all sorts of unhealthy, burdensome life narratives that can also leave them vulnerable to relapse.

Jeremy Jones is a therapist, community builder, and DND gamemaster in New Mexico, with years of experience facilitating recovery groups. He and I have a delightful dialogue about uniqueness, normality, and the human balance between them.

Some notable notes - 

“What does it mean to experience uniqueness to the point of isolated suffering, that we are too unique and do not feel that there is either a place where we can be accepted, or where we can belong?” - Jeremy poses a really good question.

We further ponder, Where does uniqueness act as a barrier to recovery? What is the cost of an attitude expressed as, “Why do I need to hear from others about their experiences when I know exactly what I’ve experienced?”

Jeremy points out, when we experience mutual vulnerability, or a willingness to put ourselves on the line, it’s the full acknowledgement or acceptance that we can be hurt or healed simultaneously.

Rhys observes that focusing on differences tends to prevent a relationship. Focusing on what is held in common, tends to bind people together. He further reflects that, “When I hold on to my uniqueness, I feel like I’m holding onto something special, even if it’s my badness. I feel reticent to let anyone be as bad as me, because that’s the thing I have to hold on to that makes me special, or gives me worth, or makes me memorable.” 

And when we consider growth in general, “Getting through a thing, rather than just past it, emphasizes that we are on a journey, and we are on it together.”

Jeremy reminds us, “We have all lived and survived the worst day in our lives so far. How might we recognize that in every single person that we meet? That this person has already survived the worst day in their lives so far?”

We often carry the burdens of uniqueness because we like the idea of being in control of our lives…until we are then also entirely responsible for all the consequences of our actions. Rhys reflects on his journey into the Orthodox faith and the relief and freedom he found when he was no longer tasked with inventing and reinventing his own worldview and value system from scratch.

The challenge with uniqueness is that saying, “I’m unique,” usually also means having to say, “I’m special! I’m extraordinary!” The reality is that if you actually are extraordinary, then that will be readily obvious, without you trying hard to show it. 

“When we think we are special, we don’t want to learn from other people, because what do they have to offer? And that’s such a limitation that we put on ourselves, to not believe we can learn from anyone.”

But to be perpetually a learner…means we can always learn!

We often talk about the “parts” of our individual systems, and today we talk about the “body part,” in particular. I caught up with Jenny Hayo, a practitioner and teacher in the wisdom traditions. She is certified in Hakomi, Internal Family Ssytems, and Yoga, and centers an ongoing, dynamic, and gentle awareness of the physical body at the core of any emotional and psychological work.

In this conversation, we start with our mutual love and appreciation for the IFS model of understanding a person, then I ask Jenny about why the body matters, what it means to remember your body, and how to go about cultivating a greater awareness of the body.

“The more awareness you have, the more knowledge you gain, and the more knowledge you gain, the more choice you have,” says Jenny, on why we should listen to our bodies. 

We reflected on the body’s crisis response system, and remark that we have lots of choices we can make throughout the day before we ever get to “The Crisis Choice,” which can often be associated with acting out. 

When we talk about practicing body awareness, and developing new daily habits, Jenny refers back to the Old Yoga Wisdom to say, “Start where you are,” and “Start small.” She recommends being gentle and noticing a few ordinary sensations. Describe aloud the sensations you feel. Don’t try to be fancy about it. 

She further recommends the book, Meditating with the Body, by Reginald Ray

            Why should we talk about money in recovery? More specifically, how does it further a person's spiritual, mental, emotional, relational development to bring awareness and insight to finances?

            Further, what is Stewardship? And what can we learn about it from Lord of the Rings?

            Dino Biaggi is a self-identified fan about being deliberate about life. He is a husband, father, Christian man, and the Financial Literacy Manager at Birch Community Services, a Sustainable Families Program, in Portland, OR. He supports families pursuing fiscal and financial health. Paired with donated household items and food, his team at Birch aims to "Teach a person how to fish," and in this way support families in becoming the answers to their own challenges.

            Rhys and Dino talk about what financial health is, beyond merely having a good budgeting app. We talk about family vision, core values, and wise practices to keep in mind as we navigate 60-100 financial choices per day.

            Along the way, we muse on how one's relationships with work and money closely interact with our experiences of stress and trauma, and thus can eerily mirror a person's addictive, compulsive, and obsessive relationships with alcohol, drugs, and pornography. Turns out that our insecurities and inner narratives have a huge impact on what we do with our finances.

            Embedded in our conversation about finances, is a discussion about Stewardship - that notion of seeing one's self as entrusted with resources, and managing them well. We make overt references to Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, as a really BAD example of a Steward.

            Dino also points us to several Biblical passages, most notably the famous Gospel "Parable of the Talents," which offers a model of stewardship done well.

            We discern that financial health cannot be reduced to a simple checklist of Do's-and-Don't's, nor is it as simple as having a well-formatted budgeting form. And yet, Dino still offers a few bits of initial advice on how to begin becoming intentional about your finances and family values, in a practical way.

When you notice that you tend to end up as the Pharisee in one of the Gospel parables…what do you do about that?

Welcome to our most ecumenical episode ever!

Mary-Kate grew up Catholic, then married a Baptist, and now is being interviewed by Moses-Rhys who is Orthodox.

We start off talking about Orthodox Christian weddings, and go from there to reflect on our spiritual heritages, our journeys towards greater closeness with God, what do we do with the Bible, and finally - the difference between healthy spirituality, and spiritualizer parts.

As counselors, we talk about the relationship between spirituality and psychology, where they work together, and where they see things differently. We also look at how healing seems to happen, or rather - how it sometimes doesn’t seem to happen. Sometimes it seems like “praying more” doesn’t actually fix our problems.

Moses-Rhys brings in reflections on the Gospel story of Jesus and the Woman Caught in Adultery.

Mary Kate brings insight from the parable of the Good Samaritan.

We talk about the “Spiritualizer Parts” which we describe as those efforts we make to be righteous, and make sure everyone else is righteous too…but without a total compassion. We ponder this daring idea of getting to know why we sin or act out, rather than jumping straight to punishing ourselves.

Moses-Rhys shares about how his own struggles with “Sinful” sexual behaviors and thoughts have morphed from hating himself into being able to show love to a high-school aged part of himself that, back then, never felt seen.

Mary Kate reflects on her “Pious Part,” who can be internally viscous, and causes anxiety in church, and who is in conflict with a more joyful and exuberant part of her. This leads her to reflect on the writings of St. Paul about the Body being made of many members. This is typically understood as referring to the Church as a whole, but Mary Kate supposes that it also describes the inner life of an individual as well.

This leads to discussions about Passion, the nous, and pursuing the Inner Stillness.

Mary Kate also reflects on the hazards of following Parts and thinking it’s the Holy Spirit, while offering the more reliable approach of discerning the voice of God in the compassionate calm.

Bible Passages referenced

John 8(The Woman)

Luke 10(The Good Samaritan)

I Corinthians 12(The Many Parts)

Rhys and Beth won the lottery...to an Internal Family Systems Level one training! From there they became friends and colleagues that talk about the Self, the Soul, and the Nature of Healing.

In today's conversation, Beth shares part of her story of being healthy, then becoming sick, then learning to find an inner spiritual health that leads to outer healing. She and Rhys(also known as Moses) reflect on how their spiritual practices and the IFS framework have revolutionized their approaches to healing and to recovery.

As part of our discussion, we offer a more in depth description of how the IFS framework conceives of a person. Each individual is a system of Parts(Manager Protectors, Firefighter Protectors, and Exiles) that is governed and nurtured best by the person's core Self.

As we talk about this "Self," and what it is, we ponder over how the IFS concept of Self mirrors how some spiritual traditions conceive of the soul. 

At the end of it, we highly recommend getting to know your system and your parts. And not just getting to know, but getting to love every single part of you.

In today’s interview, I get to interview Michele Mannix about her recovery journey.

Michelle recently celebrated 38 years of sobriety! She is a clinical professional, teacher, trainer, and avid runner! She’s worked for years in the mental health community, with houseless folks, people with long term mental illness, and supporting peers and other professionals in their sobriety.

She is in recovery from alcohol and stimulants…and from nicotine! Michelle sees smoking as very connected to alcohol and drug use. Further, she also lives with and manages a Depressive Disorder! Turns out that substance use and other addictions can be a cover for other mental illness.

Michelle has discovered an abstinence approach to be essential. Not just abstinence from one thing, but abstinence from a variety of things that all lead to each other is integral to her path to healing.

Michelle reflects on her sobriety journey, from its beginnings, being confronted about drinking on the job, all the way to current day, solid in sobriety, and learning to thrive in old age. We talk about what is essential for sobriety, and what is essential for aging well. Daily practices for mindfulness and self-care, solid relationships, and investing in the community rank high among essential sobriety practices.

She says, “Overall health and wellness is based on a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and practice, practice, practice. For me, [recovery and wellness] are about harmony, balance and service.”

Her advice for beginners - “It’s a day at a time, never give up, and it gets better.”

Also, the hardest days of sobriety are better than the best days of addiction.

“Everybody’s capable of change. Everyone has strengths.”

As people see more changes, they become more confident. They become more committed. As they become more committed, they move forward.

We’ve all heard we need to slow down. But how do busy people really slow down? How do you know when you’ve slowed down enough?

Rhys Pasimio joins up with Cole Vandervort from the Canceled Apprentice podcast in the Outer Circle Inner Stillness’s first collaboration!

Rhys and Cole talk about juggling marriage and family, work and productivity, sobriety, and spiritual growth, and all the challenges we face in this ambitious task.

Rhys owns up to not using drugs or alcohol, but “compulsively projecting” instead.

Cole brings up the notion of scheduling time for God. Is this arrogance or wisdom? We conclude that it tends to be necessity…until someday when it becomes instinctive.

Starting a habit is like setting a boundary. It’s an embodied statement about what is important to you. If you can maintain a habit, or a discipline, you can gain trust in yourself that you’ll be able to maintain your value.

The key to any new discipline is not quantity, and not even quality; it’s consistency.

Cole talks about finding pockets of time and making very intentional choices about what to do with them, especially setting intentions and resolves for the day.

Cole references “Practicing the Presence of God,” by Brother Lawrence.

Rhys references “Way of the Pilgrim,” an Orthodox classic by an unknown monk.

“In the practice [of prayer], you’re changed by the practice itself, more than any particular outcome,” says Rhys.

“We’re are changed by God’s presence; we’re not changed by what we do or what we’re accomplishing. We step in and we accept His invitation,” says Cole.

"Getting into gratitude is the treatment for sobriety fatigue."

What do the 3 Circles look like when practiced over time? 25+ years into sobriety, do the circles look the same as when you started? Do they change? Do they expand?

In this episode, I interview an individual who has been clean and sober since 1989. He shares his Circle Plan as it was in early recovery, and how his circle plan has developed over the last three decades. Turns out that as one gains experience in sobriety, one can also gain awareness of yet more and more avenues for compulsivity and unmanageability to show up. Today’s guest has gone far beyond stopping drinking and smoking. He has labored to address his relationship to sex and pornography, to food(especially to sugar), and to rage. At the same time he has left behind multiple compulsive relationships, he has developed many more healthy relationships with real people, with sober communities, with a higher power, with mentors, and ultimately with his own inner self.

We talk about the 12 Steps and other support groups. We talk about daily practices that support sobriety. We talk about a non-religious approach to spirituality. We talk about how long term sobriety requires constant active engagement. There’s no room for passivity; we have to be growing in awareness of our own selves, growing in connection with others, and growing in the role we take in our communities. Maybe we don’t do it perfectly - in fact, we most likely don’t - but if we persist in actively showing up, there is always room for healing and growth.

“In recovery, I now have the gift of choice.”

Meet Orlando Rivera, addictions counselor, teacher, mentor, sponsor, and in recovery from drugs and alcohol for more than 30 years.

In this conversation, I ask Orlando about his life as a sober person, what has changed since beginning recovery, and what needs to be in place to continue in a sober way of life.

He says, “I don’t make space for relapse,” and highly emphasizes not entertaining relapse oriented thoughts.

He says, “Recovery is about working the Inside,” to emphasize that behavior change is a byproduct of inner growth.

Orlando talks about placing a high value on being interconnected with all things, and valuing the big picture perspective. He doesn’t see himself as an isolated individual but rather as part of a community, “I do see things as interconnected, with me playing a very small role.”

For practices and values to sustain the sober life, he recommends, continued learning, responsibility, presence, allowing differences of opinion, finding the choice, and continual self-reflection, being a student of yourself, and of others. He also recommends finding the lesson in the struggle. “The irony of living in pain is that we learn from the pain.”

To learn more about this podcast, and to become a financial partner, visit patreon.com/outercircle.

How do you recover from something you can’t quit?” Sobriety from alcohol and drugs is easy in once sense because you don’t need them to live. But what does sobriety look like from food? From sex and relationships? From money?

After 34 years of recovery from process addictions, Dr. Tracy Zemansky has discovered that successful recovery hinges on continuous self-evaluation. All of our life experiences can be seen as an ongoing feedback loop. If we pay attention to the impacts of our actions, thoughts, feelings, and relationships and how these change day to day, week to week, and year to year, we can often discover just what we need. Strict rules are not the problem, and an absence of structure is not the problem, but rigidly being either high structured or highly unstructured can lead one to extreme rhythms, which tend to put one at greater risk for relapse.

Recovery is like, “A teeter totter. There’s always going to be some shifting around to get balance. I don’t know anyone who’s always perfectly in the midde.” In this we can learn that a recovery and sobriety process can take many forms for many people, and probably should take different forms for each individual person as they move through life stages and an every shifting world.

As always, we are reminded of the vital importance of staying in community, staying active and involved caring for the body, taking some sort of regular personal inventory, and the value of, “Putting one foot in front of the other.” Dr. Tracy also reminds us to spend time with people who are at least a little further down the path than we are.

“People who are a few steps down on the path, whose lives are at least comfortable a good amount of time, if not all of the time, and who seem to be living with some degree of grace and integrity, those are the folks that give me hope. There’s people who have gone through whatever it is I’m going through, and I need to find those people.”  - Dr. Tracy.

“A seeker is never finished seeking.”

Welcome to another Lives of the Sober conversation! Today we meet Jim Pender, from Calgary, Alberta. Jim has been in recovery from alcohol abuse for 38 years. As he shares he story, he shares many things he’s read and written, especially around spirituality. In our conversation, we explore what spirituality is, and why it is an essential feature of a recovery process.

Along with spirituality, we also explore the role of community. Jim reflects that, “None of us do very much on our own; we don’t do a good recovery on our own.” He says of his experience of groups and community, “There’s nothing so wonderful as being understood.”

We talk about the difference between setting a daily intention for mindfulness and connectivity, and merely burdening ourselves with long to-do lists.

“Recovery is an inside job.”

Welcome to a new series within the series - Lives of the Sober. In this series, I interview individuals who have achieved 25 or more years of sobriety. I ask them what they have done for nearly three decades to stay clean and sober, and live a healthy life. We talk about the daily practices, basic beliefs and assumptions, values, conflicts, and cautions. We talk about the role of community, contribution to the lives of others, and the ever present self-inventory. In all this, my hope is to help each recovery elder to articulate what for them is the Sober Way of Life.

In today’s episode, meet Paul Panza, in recovery for 25 years, from alcohol, cocaine, and anger. Note his transition from “White Knuckling” into sustainable and thriving life. Consider his self-check-in question of, “What’s going on with me right now?” And remember this that he says, “You are worth your recovery.”

On the one hand recovery is simple…but then it simply has to be practiced over time.

What is healthy sexuality? Hint - it’s not always abstinence!

Rhys approaches the conversation from the world of therapy, compulsive sexual behavior, sex/porn addiction. A major task in recovery from compulsive sexual behavior is figuring out healthy sexuality. Does this mean abstinence? Does this mean monogamy? Does this mean heteronormative sex? Or does it mean more mindfully engaging in what ever sexual behavior pattern you do?

Gregg Webb approaches the conversation from the ongoing conversation between Side A and Side B same-sex attracted Christians. In this world, we encounter individuals weighing the balance between the pull of a traditional and conservative Christian sexual ethic, more modern and liberal interpretations of the ancient texts, and the very powerful experience of being sexual beings who experience bodies, attraction, and sex in non-normative ways.

Both Rhys and Gregg also approach the question of healthy sexuality from within the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition.

We start with the question, why on earth would anyone NOT have as much sex as they can? In this, we begin to introduce and explore some of the different factors that drive people to seek mastery over their sexual desires, and why some of these reasons are quite beautiful and important.

In this conversation, we reflect on our experiences of growing up queer in the church, surrounded by Purity Culture in its heyday, and an ancient tradition that openly celebrates monasticism and scetic labors. WE discuss the value of being strict with one’s self, but also the value of moderation and compassion towards self and others. WE talk about the importance of being present with one’s self and with others. This presence becomes impossible when given over to an obsession with satiation and gratification of sexdual desires, just as it becomes impossible when obsessed with laws, rules, and hyper and rigid control of one’s inner desires.

WE talk about abstinence and celibacy and their limits. WE talk about cautions and considerations in taking a very strict approach with one’s self. We talk about, whatever our labor is, how important it is to do it in community.

In recovery work, we often hear this idea of the Accountability Partner, and we generally hear it’s a good idea to have this person in our lives.

But what is an Accountability Partner? Who should this person be(or not be)? What should they do or not do? And if you are seeking the accountability, what is your responsibility in the relationship?

All of this conversation demands that we first define what accountability is in the first place! Is it just a check in? A report of bad behavior? Is it more like the sacrament of confession? Or is it more like peer counseling and emotional support?

We talk about recovery in a general sense, but also talk about recovery from compulsive pornography use, which leads us on a lively discussion around the role of accountability/reporting software in an accountability plan.

Dan Stephens and Orlando Rivera join Rhys for a roundtable discussion on what accountability is and is not, and who makes the ideal accountability partner. We talk about transparency, honesty, and taking responsibility for one’s self. We talk about confession, and community, and how we need each other to succeed in any meaningful way.

We talk about how we need to connect with each other, not just in crisis, but sometimes just because we want to be together. We must do this to normalize being open and connected, which leads to normalizing that we also talk about difficult things with each other.

We leave the listener with a teaser - we hinted at the vitality of relationship repair and conflict resolution in sobriety. We’ll come back to this topic more…sometime soon.

When is acceptance a strength, and when is it merely deferment as a version of avoidance?

Acceptance is a complex concept that often gets casually thrown around in recovery circles. Many of us memorize the Serenity Prayer early on in our process, and this drills into our minds the idea of “Accepting the things we cannot change.”

This conversation brings up questions like, What is and is not my responsibility to change or take on? What am I reasonably expected to just tolerate?  When is discomfort(or even suffering) a mechanism of my growth and healing, and when is it destructive? Is it more important to change the internal or external environment? What is the value(or usefulness) of struggle and suffering in our sobriety journeys and overall growth?

What is the cost of non-acceptance? When do we accept, or tolerate, or work to change our situations? What is our tolerance for misery?

Rhys and special guest Jeremy Jones tackle a more philosophical concept, and look for the practical applications.

We talk about how change is difficult. But then again, not-change is also difficult.

Pain and suffering can be grouped as shades of discomfort. We talk about seeking pleasure and ease versus seeking health and connection.

In addressing the pain, we raise questions like, “Are we more interested in process or outcome?” Are we thinking, “I just want to be happy and sober,” or “I want to be a holy and virtuous person”?

We discuss how there is an unhealthy way of acceptance that is more like giving up and taking a passive approach to life, that can also be done as a means of self-punishment, or an expression of low self-worth. But we also talk about a healthy acceptance that is an embracing of reality. We value striving to be actively present. Embracing what is without judgment. Sometimes that IS needs to stay the same, and sometimes it needs to change. In either case, though, another thing that IS is the deep well of strength that exists within each human being.

We talked about how, even when a situation seems unchangeable, to still look for what choice there is.

Jeremy introduced the practice Death Meditations, which are meant to help us offer open-hearted curiosity towards that most unchangeable reality that every human faces…that someday we all die.

Rhys thinks that external change matters more in early stages of healing/recovery, and uses analogy of injured or new tree being offered a fence while it grows. He references the tree “firmly planted by living water.” Having a healthy environment early on is helpful so one does  not become overwhelmed. So things like new living situation, new job, new relationships, makes more sense here.

At some point though, the healing organism develops its own strength, and can withstand greater forces. At some point the tree that would have been destroyed by storm wind is actually strengthened by it. At some point, the growing person becomes able to use adversity for their own character growth/spiritual growth, etc.

Jeremy closes this episode with a beautiful mindfulness exercise.

We continue exploring this question of how to define sobriety, and progress in recovery. In particularly, we address concerns of partners watching their loved one in recovery and wondering how to tell if any progress is being made.

Ian and his wife are currently working to redefine sobriety from pornography abuse, incopororating a harm reduciton approach.

Dan is completing his CSAT credential and helping others to look for more than just behavior change as a sign of growth. From a clinical and spiritual perspective, he draws attention to the “Root desire” issue that is, “A whole lot more complicated to measure.” We collectively examine and question the traditionally strict abstinence-only models that are commonly employed.

We talk about First and Second Order Change, and how these compare to being conformed to the image of Christ. Rhys makes mention of the Orthodox Christian concept of Theosis, and the idea that the point of life is to repent and prepare for death.

We revisit the Three Circles exercise, the namesake of this show, and examine how to use this, both to define sobriety, as well as how to communicate one’s recovery progress with a partner. We discuss the Full Disclosure process, the function of it in recovery, and some considerations in choosing to undertake it or not.

Above all, we emphasize how recovery is a process, not a milestone, and sobriety is more than just stopping a behavior, but is rather a whole life transformation.

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Here's a scenario. One partner is in active addiction. They he or she gets into recovery. But that person has a partner who's been hurt, deceived, betrayed, and really confused, and now that partner is asking...how do I know my partner is making ANY progress in sobriety at all?

For that matter, the person in recovery may be asking of themselves, “How do I know I’m getting any better?”

Rhys and Ian reflect on shared experiences of acting out, recovery, laboring for greater healing, and working to define, and sometimes re-define, what is sobriety in our individual lives.

Defining progress means first defining the problem.

We discuss the way that a person engages with a substance or behavior, whether that be alcohol, weed, porn, media in general, food, legalism, or other things. Rhys introduces the question, "What is the desired effect of [behavior of choice]?"

Rhys says, "The same substance, used for a different desired result, affects how the relationship with it is."

Most recovery programs have a foundational concept of abstinence. We discuss the "Just stop it," approach to Acting Out and whether or not it actually works. We explore more gentle and mindful approaches that tend to work better.

One problem with this approach is that people take the attitude of, "Well, as long as I just stop [this one behavior]...then I'm good," and don't pursue any further growth or change.

We rant on the limits to accountability software, and how this resource is good and fine, but an over-reliance on it can shortchange the growth process. Ian calls is a game - "Here's another fun thing to hack!" Rhys says it is, "A lazy approach to one's own soul." When it comes to establishing boundaries with the internet in support of abstaining from porn, Rhys is in favor of, "If you're gonna limit access...then REALLY limit access," up to and including removing the internet from your house.

An abstinence approach tends to invoke the "White knuckling method," which Ian describes as "Really thin protections against the deeper, weighty reasons for addiction."

Ian reflects on the interactions between emotional development and spiritual development, and how some church cultures - in their pursuit of a rigid holiness - have sometimes prevented adequate emotional development, and promoted shame. We reflect on how a more open, and compassionate approach to spiritual growth that normalizes struggle and provides easily accessible venues to openly discuss them, can save us from shame, and help us become healthier.

Predictably enough, Rhys gets on the IFS soapbox and encourages us all to consider with compassionate curiosity, all our parts...even the ones that Act Out.

When a person who is a system can realize they are a system, they can escape a multitude of confusing and chaotic experiences.

The counseling field has long recognized group counseling as consistently being one of the most effective treatment modalities, and contexts for healing and growth. We counselors often talk about the idea that our deepest wounds come from relationships, and are best healed…in other relationships.

We believe this, but recognize that many people are uncertain about group. We could say skeptical, resistant, or at least very concerned about what would happen to them if they joined a group. Some people are shy and intimidated. Others are concerned about being triggered. There’s always questions about confidentiality. More than all that, those who have very little experience with healthy relationships often ask…what’s the point of sitting in a room with other people? We often hear the complaint, “I’m not getting any value out of group.”

Just what is the value of group?

Rhys teams up with colleagues and prior co-facilitators Ben Poling and Jeremy Jones, to unpack the group counseling/group therapy phenomenon, and endeavor to offer some quick answers to the skeptical prospective group member. We talk about process groups, 12-Step groups, classes and skills groups, and non-clinical affinity groups and faith communities. We talk about the benefits of group, the benefits of relationship, and the benefits of ritual.

When sexualizing others is a problem, what do you do?

In Orthodox Christian thought and practice, we recognize the Image of God in everyone. This becomes the key to an inner transformative process that can heal our desire for sexual gratification at any cost. When we can see each person as an Icon of Christ, and venerate them, strive to see the fullness of who they are and who they can be, glorified in Christ, then our own inner orientation begins to change. We begin to be healed, and we begin to be able to truly connect.

Today’s reflection is a continuation of a reflection begun last episode with Drew Boa.

Today’s reflection is also strongly informed by the marvelous work of Andrew Williams in the podcast “Finding the Freedom to Live.”

They approach the problem of sexualization from two very different Christian traditions, and both have something of value to offer. I highly encourage you to check out their resources, links to which are below.

In the course of recovery from patterns of compulsive sexual behavior, many people recognize a need to take the work beyond merely avoiding erotic imagery, but also work to master erotic thoughts. We experience urges, at times very intrusive urges to sexualize other humans, and we have a desire to stop doing this.

It’s a monumental task! How do we do it?

Attack! Avoid! Ignore the urges! That will make them go away….right?

WRONG!

In this, most personal interview yet, Rhys interviews Drew Boa, fellow counselor, podcaster, and Christian in recovery about tackling this most deeply engrained pattern of reflexive thought.

With references to the Internal Family Systems model of therapy, we recognize urges to sexualize as being but a part of the person’s whole consciousness. A Sexualizer Part.

Drew says even the sexualizer parts need nurture. As we talk about things we’re deeply ashamed of, and yet get aroused by, there’s a part of us that needs to be loved, needs to be nurtured.

Rhys says that self-control isn’t always healing, and can in fact be a way of avoiding feeling feelings, which is a way of avoiding deeper healing work.

Drew makes the bold statement that if you never have an orgasm again, you’ll be fine…but “intimacy is a biological imperative. Without connection, we die.”

We agree that, “We need to distinguish between attractions and desires.” Desires are particularly connected to our stories of suffering.

On the fly, Rhys and Drew take a deep dive, first into Drew’s trauma history, and then into Rhys’s current day inner struggles, bringing out some very vulnerable and formative memories. Together, they reflect on insights gained, and current practices for offering compassion back to their younger and inner selves.

Drew points out that, “Our deepest desires reflect how we have most deeply suffered.”

What is the human person, and how shall we best understand him or her? Why do we react to others the way we do? Why do we fall into the patterns we do? Most importantly, how can gaining a greater understanding of our interior worlds help is to grow in health, in sobriety, in presence and connectedness, and grow closer to Christ?

Rhys Pasimio and counselor colleague, Orthodox friend, and fellow podcaster Christian Gonzales take a surface level look at the Enneagram and the Internal Family Systems counselor modality. Literature abounds to describe both of these powerful tools; in this conversation, Rhys and Christian reflect primarily on their own experiences of finding their Enneagram Number and getting to know their own Parts. They compare and contrast the language and frameworks of each, and further look at them through the lens of Orthodox Christianity.

For more information about any of these topics or guests, or to learn how to support this podcast, please visit https://www.patreon.com/outercircle

Rhys Pasimio can be found through www.newpatterncounseling.com, and is always happy to dialogue with listeners bringing honest questions!

How are you struggling today?

Rhys and Ian muse over the struggles inherent to life, to work, to recovery, to marriage and family, to spirituality. We talk about the weight of life, and the importance of margins. Being present with our families and important people is vitally important, but the whole world seems bent on keeping us away from presence. What do we do about the ongoing struggle before us?

Do we try to escape or alleviate it? Maybe. And there are healthy and connective ways of doing this…and destructive and chaotic ways of doing this.

As an alternative, which we say is better, we can embrace our suffering. We can lean into what we can learn and how we can be made better through struggle and suffering. One important question is when is it good to reduce suffering and when is suffering good? One crucial component in answering this question is having relationships with trusted others. Turns out, suffering and struggle are better done when in a relationship where you can know and be fully known by the other.

Also we must remember that we can only embrace suffering for ourselves; we can never set expectations of others as to what they can or must or should not embrace. With one’s self, be strict, but with others, be only gentle and merciful.

Finally, one must not embrace struggle and suffering just for struggle and suffering’s sake. The benefit comes from knowing the reasons why you struggle. There has to be a clear understanding of what is the prize and benefit from embracing the struggle. If there is not sense of purpose and prize, then there is no purpose to be strict on yourself. But when you know what is the “joy set before us,” then your suffering becomes your salvation.