Regulated & Relational
By Attachment & Trauma Network, Inc.
Regulated & RelationalJan 03, 2023
Ep 70 - Geeking out on Attachment, Yoga, and Somatic Experiencing with Heather Altman
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk with Rabbi Heather Altman about Attachment, Yoga, and Somatic Experiencing. She is a trauma specialist and a parent coach. She specializes in disruptive behavior in families. Her goal is to help her clients experience more comfort, more calm, and more compassion in their lives. She helps families develop deeper connections between the parents and children. Isn’t that what we all want.
AND … she is mother of triplets!!!!
Heather says that “We need to find some level of OKness. Pleasure and joy are a goal, but OKness is actually OK.”
Listen in to learn more about somatic experiencing. Find out what it is and how Heather combines that with yoga.
Ep 69 - My Trauma Isn't Your Trauma
In this episode Julie and Ginger talk about the 3Es of trauma. SAMHSA, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration of the US government, coined the term “the 3Es” and this has become core to the definition of trauma. The 3Es is a very basic concept but, while it is very basic, it isn’t simple. To determine if something is traumatizing, we can’t judge based on whether we think the event should be traumatizing. It is very individualized.
SAMHSA says, “Individual trauma results from an event, series of events or set of circumstances, that is experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life-threatening, and that has a lasting adverse effect on the individual’s functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual wellbeing.”
The 3Es are: Event, Experience, and Effect.
Events happen and that doesn’t mean it is traumatizing. Not everyone present at the event is traumatized. It depends on how you experience the event and how it affects your life. It is truly individualized.
Listen in as Julie and Ginger talk about what makes an event more likely to be traumatizing and how this can be mitigated.
Remember – Your trauma is not my trauma! And, no one gets to pick their trauma. It is truly the nervous system’s response.
Ep 68 - Exploring Baffling Behaviors with Robyn Gobbel
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Robyn Gobbel into the studio. Robyn loves cultivating deep, resonant connections with anyone who is up for it, and especially loves teaching anyone who will listen how to harness the power of neuroscience so they can cultivate deep, resonant connections, too. Robyn says, “Really, what would change in the world if we could all see, be with, feel, and deeply know each other…and ourselves. I think everything would change!”
Before the COVID-19 pandemic, Robyn was a therapist for almost 20 years, specializing in complex trauma, attachment, and adoption. Now, she creates communities and educational experiences grounded in regulation, connection, and felt safety for parents and professionals all over the world. Robyn is an author, podcast host and parenting coach.
Robyn’s approach is based in neuroscience. She takes that complex topic and brings it to a level where parents can grasp it. Once we understand neuroscience, we can really begin to trust our intuitions. Neuroscience helps us stop applying band aids to behaviors. Instead, we can comprehend what is going on underneath the behaviors. This changes our approach.
Listen in as Robyn talks about specific behaviors, such as lying. That a big one! She breaks down the difference between normal lying and abnormal lying. And then she talks about what is really going on beneath the lying. She says that it all boils down to felt safety, connectedness and regulation.
For more information about Robyn, go to her website at RobynGobbel.com. There you can find a lot of free resources. To order her book, Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors, go to ATN’s Bookshop at https://bookshop.org/p/books/raising-kids-with-big-baffling-behaviors-brain-body-sensory-strategies-that-really-work-robyn-gobbel/19679331?aid=22880&ean=9781839974281&listref=resources-for-parents-912ec909-948a-4642-aa54-957538d26cb8.
Ep 67 - A Conversation about Trauma-Informed Care with National PTA President, Yvonne Johnson
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Yvonne Johnson into the studio. Yvonne is the 58th president of the National PTA. She is committed to being intentional about creating more inclusion and diversity in schools, and she focuses on strengthening family and school partnerships. Yvonne has been involved in the PTA for over 30 years!
The PTA’s mission is “Making sure that every child reaches their full potential by engaging and empowering families and communities to advocate for all children.” Yvonne says that she serves as the voice for families around all education issues.
Listen in to learn what led Yvonne to be so passionate about trauma-informed education and learn more about the PTA’s current initiatives. These initiatives include federal, state, and local policies that keep our students healthy, supported and safe. A safe school is a priority for the National PTA.
ATN is so honored to be mission aligned with the National PTA.
If you want to learn more about the initiatives that were mentioned, go to:
https://www.pta.org/home/advocacy/ptas-positions/Individual-Position-Statements/Position-Statement-Trauma-Informed-Care
https://www.pta.org/home/events/National-PTA-Legislative-Conference
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/1426?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%22The+RISE+Act%22%7D&s=1&r=3
Ep 66 - Addressing Working Memory in a Trauma-Sensitive Classroom
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Jen Alexander and Jennifer Dickey into the studio. They have come to talk about executive function skills and working memory. You may recognize Jen Alexander, as she has been in the studio several times. She is an educator, national certified counselor, school based registered play therapist and a leader in the movement to build trauma-sensitive schools. Jen is the author of Building Trauma-Sensitive Schools: Your Guide to Creating Safe, Supportive Learning Environments for All Students.
Jennifer Dickey’s passion is in designing academic and effective support for divergent learners. She is the founder of Lotus Cognitive Solutions Groups, which provides coaching for children and adults with ADHD and Dyslexia. She is a classroom teacher, a gifted and talented specialist, an academic language specialist, and a full-time college professor.
Together, they have developed a new guide to help educators, entitled Supporting Students’ Executive Function Skill in the Trauma-Sensitive Classroom: Focusing in on working memory. The guide has 8 colorful panels with practical advice broken into bite sized chunks. It explains how to recognize working memories challenges and how to shift your paradigm from “Why aren’t you doing your work?” to “What is difficult about this work?”
Listen in to learn exactly what working memory is and why it is critical to school success.
Ep 65 - The Self-Reg Framework
Today, Julie and Ginger invite Dr. Susan Hopkins into the studio. Dr. Hopkins, along with Dr. Stuart Shanker, will be keynoting at ATN’s 7th Annual Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools Conference in February 2024. Dr. Shaker is the MEHRIT Centre and Self-Reg Founder, and Dr. Hopkins is the Executive Director of the Self-Reg organization. Together they have authored several books. They are a powerful team! To learn more, go to www.self-reg.ca.
Dr. Hopkins has over 20 years of experience in all levels of education, including roles as teacher, vice-principal, curriculum developer, and inclusion coordinator. Oh, and she is a mom. All of this experience has made her well-equipped to show us the need to be self-regulated.
In this episode, Dr. Hopkins tells us exactly what Self-Reg is about, and she explains how it is anchored in understanding the brain-body science of stress. We all understand the meaning of self-regulation, but the Self-Reg Framework consists of 5 steps to deal with stress so that we can experience calm in our minds and bodies. At the MEHRIT Centre, people who care for and work with children and youth are taught the skills needed to better support dysregulated kids.
Listen in as Dr. Hopkins reviews the five steps of this framework and gives examples of how to implement each one. You don’t want to miss this! And, you don’t want to miss hearing Drs. Shanker and Hopkins speak at our upcoming conference. For more information, go to www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/conference.
Ep 64 - This Year's Retrospective
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Lorraine Schneider into the studio to chat about the episodes from season 3 and there were some really great ones! Lorraine is a member of the ATN hard-working staff and one of her responsibilities is to edit the podcasts. As a result, she has listened to every one of them!
As Lorraine says, “Yes, I have listened to each podcast and every one has great nuggets to take from it and apply to life each day.”
Julie follows that up with, “You can’t go wrong with any of our episodes, we hate to brag, but….”
Listen in as Julie, Ginger and Lorraine chat about the episodes that left an impression on them and why. We hope that you have a few extra moments to listen to some of our favorites during this holiday season. It’s a great time to catch up!
Ep 63 - The Biology of Attachment Trauma
In this episode, Julie and Ginger welcome Dr. Aimie into the studio. Basically, Dr. Aimie is amazing. She is a double board-certified physician, boarded in both preventive and addiction medicine. Additionally, she is a foster mom and an adoptive mom.
Through her journey, trauma became her own personal story. She realized that we talk about feelings but there is a biological piece that has been missing. As Dr. Aimie says, “Life experiences become one with biology.” Listen in to hear what she has to say about the connection between one’s biology and one’s attachment style. Also, listen and learn how we can use biology to alter attachment. Fascinating stuff!
Visit Dr. Aimie’s web page at www.TheEmbodyLab.com. There you can find many resources including a guide to specific imbalances that occur in the body that hinder attachment.
Dr. Aimie wants us to remember that “We have to integrate the biological approach with the therapeutic approach.” The two go hand-in-hand.
Ep 62 - What Does It Mean To Be Trauma-Informed?
In this episode, Julie and Ginger delve into the definitions of trauma-informed. While this seems very simple, there are many definitions floating out there and we wanted to clarify exactly what ATN uses in its definitions. When ATN was created, there was no true concept of trauma and its effects on our children. Thankfully, the trauma-informed movement has gained momentum throughout the last decade and half. As a result, we see a lot of people throwing around the word “trauma” when they really mean something else.
So, at ATN, we researched many resources to develop our definitions. In this episode, we first define trauma-aware. The next level is trauma-informed. Then comes along trauma-sensitive. The final step in the process is being trauma-responsive. Listen in to learn what these terms mean.
One thing we learned along the way is that you can’t just learn to be trauma-sensitive. Julie says, “It is something that you truly become.” Julie and Ginger explain what that paradigm shift means.
ATN is currently developing a Certification Program with levels for individuals, schools, and organizations. Stay tuned to learn more about this program and its expected release in the Spring of 2024.
Ep 61 - Gratitude, Grounding and Glimmers
Today Julie and Ginger are talking about the 3 G’s: Gratitude, Grounding and Glimmers. These are basic mindfulness strategies that provide emotional safety in both the home and the classroom. This is a hard time of year for those of us who are emotionally stressed, and our stressors really start to build up with work schedules, school schedules and work schedules during the holiday season. People can actually start to dread this time of year. But, as Ginger says, “Not only can we survive, but hopefully we can learn to thrive.”
You must give yourself permission to pause, reflect, make things smaller, dial down the craziness and really focus on what is important. Only then will the season truly shine. We need to know that “These are practices we must learn and seek out. We can’t wait for them to come to us,” says Julie. Listen and learn how to find your Gratitude, Grounding and Glimmer ideas that you can use throughout this holiday season and beyond.
To view the resources that are discussed in this podcast go to: https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/Triggers-and-Glimmers-map.pdf, https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/Glimmer-personal_profile_map.pdf and https://www.developgoodhabits.com/mindfulness-worksheets/
Ep 60 - What Can Be Done About The School to Prison Pipeline?
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about the school to prison pipeline with Leonard Webb. What an important topic this is! Leonard retired from law enforcement and now uses his experience to address the issues of exclusionary discipline, implicit biases, and structural racism. His goal is to improve the educational outcomes of students by improving relationships between administrators, teachers, parents, and students. Leonard provides equity-based solutions by bringing accountability to school leaders while increasing attendance and decreasing suspensions and expulsions. He was appointed by Governor Hogan to the Juvenile Justice School Board in the state of Maryland.
Listen in to learn what the school to prison pipeline really is, why it is important, and how we can work to reduce its numbers. Mr. Webb states, “Underfunded schools lead to overcrowded prisons.” There is a direct correlation and many ways to make a difference. He uses the concept of RISK - establish Real relationships, have Intentional interactions, create Safe spaces, and Keep asking questions. Yes, it takes us out of our comfort zone but that is what a risk is. It is a shift of our focus.
Leonard tells us that it may not be easy, but it is really very simple.
To learn more about Leonard Webb and his program, visit his Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/webbolutionary/ or go to http://endtheschool2prisonpipeline.com/. You can also email him directly at revolutionary@gmail.com.
Ep 59 - What is the Vagus Nerve?
In this episode, Julie and Ginger discuss the Vagus nerve and other occupational therapist topics with Allison Morgan. Allison is the founder and CEO of Zensational Kids, an educational company with the vision of providing schools and organizations with professional development focused on boosting mental health and well-being and learning for the entire school community. Allison creates programs that integrate trauma-responsive approaches, mindfulness, and Social-Emotional learning. Zensational Kids practices can be found in over 100 countries and 11,000 schools worldwide.
When Allison was practicing occupational therapy in the school system, she saw that when she implemented yoga and mindfulness into the sessions, many of the goals were achieved. She realized that she needed to move away from the handwriting practice, the shoelace tying, the check list sheets, and the behavior charts. Change must come from the inside out and this led Allison to learn more about the nervous system and the Vagus nerve.
Listen in to learn exactly what the Vagus nerve is and where it is in the body. Allison leads us through several exercises aimed at calming our nervous system.
To learn more about Zensational Kids and to access Allison’s free resources, go to: https://zensationalkids.com/.
Ep 58 - Inner Working Models - Where do they come from?
In this episode Julie and Ginger talk about the Inner Working Model. This is basically the blueprint for how we connect with others.
John Bowlby says it best – “All of us, from cradle to grave, are happiest when life is organized as a series of excursions, long or short, from the secure base provided by our attachment figures.” What is a secure base? What is the attachment cycle? Why does it matter? Listen in to learn how the answers to these questions lead to a person’s inner working model and how that affects them for the rest of their life.
Dr. Lou Cozolino says, “Brains link together. We are social creatures and our biologies are interwoven. Each brain is dependent on the scaffolding of caregivers and loved ones for survival, growth, and wellbeing. There are no single brains. Each brain adapts according to other brains they are surrounded by.” This is all based on our first relationships and the best way to therapeutically care for children is to understand our own inner working model.
Because - When we know better, we do better.
Ep 57 - Creating a Regulating Classroom Environment
In this episode, the studio is full. Julie and Ginger have Jen Alexander and Anna Paravano as guests. Jen Alexander is a veteran educator, counselor, and long-time ATN friend. She is a passionate leader in the building of trauma-sensitive schools. Anna Paravano is also a long-time ATN friend and previous board member. Anna’s background is in interior design. She is a professional interior designer with over 40 years of experience, and she teaches at the college level. They are both moms to children with developmental trauma.
These two ladies united to create a quick guide on how to create a safe and supportive physical environment using a trauma-informed lens. This guide can be purchased by going to ATN’s bookshop at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork.
The guide offers practical advice linked to what we can do right now, right here, to support students and adults. We must emember that good design is different for children than it is for adults. Children see their environment from another lens. Jen says, “Design is about how we use the space and interact in the space,” so, listen in to hear Jen and Anna talk about how décor looks in a trauma-sensitive design.
To learn more about these two ladies, go to www.Growing-at-Home.com or www.msjenalexander.com.
Ep 56 - Getting on the Same Page: Teacher-Parent Relationships
In this episode, Julie and Ginger are talking about relationships between parents and teachers with their guest host, Jessica Harris. Jessica was a teacher with 17 years of experience until she began the CLIMB program. As an alternative to out of school suspensions, the CLIMB program provides students with intensive instruction and support while keeping them in school. Through this program, Jess is changing the educational landscape and using teacher-parent relationships as a tool.
We know that relationships are key between the teacher and their students, but what about between teachers and the parents? How do we initiate this relationship? How can we get off on the right foot? How do we approach this from a trauma informed lens? And - Why is it so important?
Listen in to learn what needs parents have, what needs teachers have and how we can fill those needs. The relationship between the parents and teacher is the key. The biggest obstacle to forming these relationships is time. Jess shares some tips to work around this obstacle.
Jess says, “We must share every win that every child achieves.” It is critical.
Ep 55 - Let's Talk Regulation & Co-Regulation with Ginger Healy
In this episode, we have invited a guest host, Kimberly Smathers, into the studio. Kimberly is on the Board of Directors of the Attachment & Trauma Network, and she is a true champion of ATN’s work. Kimberly is talking with Ginger Healy about her recent book, Regulation and Co-Regulation: Accessible Neuroscience and Connection Strategies that Bring Calm into the Classroom (15-Minute Focus).
You know Ginger as the co-host of this Regulated and Relational podcast, but what you may not know is that Ginger is a clinical social worker with almost 30 years of experience. She has worked as a child abuse investigator, a hospital social worker, and a school therapist. Oh – and she is a mom to children with special needs. So, she is very well positioned to author this book!
Ginger’s book is a quick and easy read, something we all need in our busy lives. Ginger points out that we aren’t born with the ability to regulate on our own. It takes years of experiences (and millions of those experiences) of co-regulation for us to develop that skill.
Listen in to learn the difference between accountability and punishment. Why is accountability healing? Why is punishment traumatizing? How can we use this knowledge to heal our entire community?
To order Ginger’s book, go to ATN’s bookshop at https://bookshop.org/p/books/15-minute-focus-regulation-and-co-regulation-accessible-neuroscience-and-connection-strategies-that-bring-calm-into-the-classroom-brief-counseling-gin/19786117?aid=22880&ean=9781953945792&listref=resources-for-educators
You can also reach out to Ginger at ginger@attachtrauma.org. She would love to hear from you.
Ep 54 - The Importance of Belonging
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about Belonging. And what an important concept that really is! Love and belonging are crucial human needs and Brene Brown says, “You can’t study emotions and experiences that define being human without constantly bumping into the concept of belonging.” It is that primal!
Listen in to learn the difference between fitting in and belonging. Spoiler alert – its all about relationships because true belonging doesn’t require you to change who you are, it requires you to be who you are.
Why is belonging so difficult for those with trauma? How does lack of belonging relate to drug abuse? How does belonging release endorphins in our brains?
To learn more about “The Belonging Barometer” study, go to https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/the-belonging-barometer
And remember - we are a social species. We must belong.
Ep 53 - Unpacking Our Griefcase
In this episode, Julie and Ginger explore the concept of grief by welcoming Emelio Parga into the studio. Emelio is the founder and Executive Director of the Solace Tree, a grief and loss support center for children, teens and adults in Reno, NV. He coordinates support groups there and in the schools in Nevada. Emelio has collaborated to create The Good Grief Project for K-12 students who have experienced loss. Additionally, he teaches courses on death and dying.
Emelio says that “Grief impacts everyone” and “We all carry our own griefcase”. We can help others process their grief by listening and hearing. “It’s the little things that are really the big things,” he says. And by listening, you may be the lifeline for someone.
Robin Williams says that “Everyone is battling something that you know nothing about. Be kind always.” We must become doers, not just passive watchers! Be kind. Always.
To learn more about the Solace Tree and The Good Grief Project, go to https://www.solacetree.org/.
Ep 52 - Ever Wonder About Curiosity?
In this episode, Julie and Ginger are deep-diving into the concept of curiosity. Brene Brown defines curiosity as recognizing a gap in our knowledge about something that interests us and becoming emotionally and cognitively invested in closing that gap though exploration and learning. This differs from simply being interested in something. Interest is just a state. Curiosity can be both a state and a trait.
Listen in to hear the benefits of curiosity. It is positive to be curious and the curiosity of other people is a great way to build relationships. Relationships are of utmost importance with the children in our lives and therefore, curiosity is of utmost importance. As every teacher knows, if you get a child interested in something, the other things around that lesson will also be taken in. Curiosity must be in every classroom!
Learn why entering curiosity can be scary. It is basically a not- knowing-stance and we must make it ok to not know. We must model it. We have to show that being curious has great rewards.
We are curious about what you are curious about. Send us a message at heart@attachtrauma.org about how curiosity affects your life. We want to know!
Ep 51 - Diving into Anger
In this episode, Julie and Ginger dive into anger! Brene Brown defines anger as an emotion we feel when something gets in the way of our desired outcome, or when we believe there is a violation of the way we believe something should be. She says that anger is both active and activating.
Anger is an emotion we all experience, and it causes us to go into a fight or flight response. This means we shift to a state of survival, with our heart rate and adrenalin level increasing, and our cognitive and relational abilities decreasing.
Julie says, “We have three options on how to deal with anger: express it, suppress it, or process it.” We never age out of the emotion of anger, instead we need to learn how to navigate it. Listen in for tips on how to safely navigate the anger of yourself and the children in your care.
We want to hear from you! Please let us know what works for you when it comes to processing anger. Share your tips!
Ep 50 - Exploring Interoception
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Connie Persike into the studio to talk about interoception, one of our hidden senses. Interoception is the ability to process information from inside our bodies that affects our behavior, our health, and our well-being.
Connie is a highly experienced Speech Language Pathologist and educational consultant with more than 20 years’ experience in the educational setting. She is also a published writer and blogger. Connie created a process to assess student behavior which deviates from the traditional behaviorism approach. Her approach aligns with current relational neuroscience.
What is interoception? What does it look like? How can a teacher or caregiver help a child recognize it? Connie says, “Interoception is the foundation of self-regulation. Without it, we cannot become self-aware and attribute meaning to that”.
We need to teach children to just take a pause and notice what they are feeling and where in their bodies they are feeling it. This is something we all need!
Connie’s motto is Connection + Collaboration = Endless Possibilities. Wow!
To learn more, visit Connie’s website at https://supportablesolutions.com.
Ep 49 - Advocating for Trauma-Informed Special Education
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite a special guest, Bill Zee, into the studio. Bill is the Chair of the Education Law Group at Appel, Yost & Zee in Lancaster PA. Bill has over 15 years of experience in school and special education law. He is both an educator by degree and an early childhood trauma survivor. As a result, Bill is passionate about the journey of making schools trauma informed. Bill is also an ATN Board member making this one of the most diversified boards ever.
Bill was led to the field of special education law by first becoming an educator. He says that, “Educators made such a huge difference in my life and I always wanted to make that same difference.” He then transitioned into law with the goal of focusing on school law. Pennsylvania is leading the movement to have schools become trauma-informed. It is invaluable for educators to be knowledgeable of trauma informed language, understand that parents bring baggage, and be willing to acknowledge that parents are part of the team.
Pa is definitely one of the states we should be watching!
Ep 48 - The Power of the Pause
In this session, Julie and Ginger invite Dr. Jon Baylin into the studio. Dr. Baylin received his doctorate in clinical psychology from Peabody College of Vanderbilt University in 1981 and he has been working in the mental health field for 35 years. He has immersed himself in the study of neuroscience and in teaching mental health practitioners about the brain. Dr. Baylin delivers keynote addresses nationally and internationally. He collaborates with Dr. Daniel Hughes and their first book, Brain Based Parenting, was released in 2012. In 2016, their second book, The Neurobiology of Attachment-Focused Therapy was released.
Today, Julie, Ginger and Dr. Baylin are talking about the “Power of the Pause”. Dr. Baylin says a child’s brain, especially one that has experience childhood trauma, is all about getting a very quick reaction to things, but sometimes that fast reaction is not the best. By teaching the children the power of the pause, we can help them gain self-control and feel empowerment. The pause helps all of us move beyond only using our amygdala and using the higher portion of our brain. Dr. Baylin says, “We can upshift our brains by pausing.”
Listen in to learn more about this concept and how it truly is based in relationship.
To order Dr. Baylin and Dr. Hughes’ books, visit ATN’s Bookshop at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork.
Ep 47 - The Importance of Feeling Safe
In this episode, Julie and Ginger discuss the concept of “Felt Safety”. You can’t trust, heal, or learn in a state of unsafety. This isn’t only about physical safety, but this concept also includes emotional safety. It’s all about the state of your nervous system. Listen in to understand what happens in a child’s brain when they are unsafe, either from a perceived or actual threat. Ginger says, “Children need help returning to the baseline of felt safety through co-regulation.” That is the adult’s responsibility.
Safety is always first, so how does the adult bring about a feeling of safety for the child. First, believe in the child and listen to what they are experiencing. Next, increase predictability, structure, and routine. Also, be careful with your tone of voice. Avoid sarcasm and avoid yelling. And remember - creating an environment of felt safety is important for all children, not just those with early childhood trauma. It is for all of us!
To order ATN’s Calm Kits, visit ATN’s store at https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/atn-store-educator/. Videos on how to use each calm kit item is included with the purchase.
If you choose to create your own “calm kit”, be sure to include tactile items such as fidgets, squishies, silly putty, silicone sponges, shaving cream, weighted blankets, mini tramps, crash pads, pillows and chair bands, just to name a few.
To join our upcoming book study, go to https://www.tfaforms.com/5060290. To sign up for our Movies That Matter Series, click https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/movies-that-matter-series/ Hope to see you there!
Ep 46 - Our Hidden Senses
Today Julie and Ginger invite Jessica Sinarski into the studio. If you think her name seems familiar, then you are correct. Jessica has been here before. This is her second appearance with us! Jessica is a therapist, speaker and change maker. She is the founder of Brave Brains and the author of the Riley the Brave series, Hello Anger and more. Her latest book, Riley the Brave’s Sensational Senses, teaches children about their senses with strategies for emotional regulation. Jessica recently began her deep dive into the world of the senses. She saw that sensory processing was difficult for kids from foster care. In fact, she claims that almost all children with early childhood trauma have issues with sensory processing.
We are all familiar with the five senses – sight, sound, smell, taste, and touch – but Jessica says there are three more! Listen in to learn about those additional senses. Additionally, Jessica has great advice on how adults can help children deal with difficult sensory input. She says, “Let’s be curious!!!! Let’s be proactive! Let’s be flexible!”
To order Jessica’s books, go to ATN’s bookshop at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork.
To learn more about her work go to her websites at www.BraveBrains.com and www.JessicaSinarski.com . Or – read Jessica’s blog posts, Understanding the BRAIN —> SENSES —> BEHAVIOR Connection and From Stuck and Suicidal to Feeling Safe and in Control .
Ep 45 - Preventing Childhood Sexual Abuse
In this episode Ginger and Julie invite Tracy Leonard into the studio. Tracy is the Programming and Partnership Manager at the non-profit, Darkness to Light. Darkness to Light empowers adults to prevent child abuse. She is also an authorized facilitator and certified instructor at Darkness to Light. The curriculum focuses on how to recognize, react, and respond to child sexual abuse. Tracy is also vital to ATN as a board member and the leader of the development team.
April is National Child Abuse Prevention Month, so this episode is very timely. The US Department of Health and Human Services recently put out their report for 2021 stating that 76% of all children experience neglect. 16% experience physical abuse and 10% experience sexual abuse… And realize - these are the reported cases.
Darkness to Light believes that it is an adult’s responsibility to protect children and it is a child’s responsibility to be a child. Listen in to learn more about the curriculum that Darkness to Light developed and presents. They focus on how to minimize the opportunity for sexual abuse. If it does happen, adults are taught how to react. Adults are also taught how to intervene if they see someone crossing the boundary by being an active bystander. Tracy says that it is amazing to see all the light bulbs go off during the training.
To learn more about the Darkness to Light program, to go https://www.d2l.org/ .
Ep 44 - Trauma in the Pews
In this Episode, Julie and Ginger welcome Dr. Janyne McConnaugheyinto the studio. Janyne has a long career in teaching, teacher education and an expertise in early childhood development. Dr. McConnaughey is a nationally known trauma-informed author, having lived with the effects of childhood sexual abuse from the time she was three years old until she entered therapy and began healing at the age of 61. Janyne joined ATN’s Board of Directors in 2019 and is now in her second year as the Board President. Her latest book is “Trauma in the Pews”.
Janyne’s mission with this book is to help ministry leaders understand what they are seeing in their congregations. What they are seeing is not a spiritual problem; What they are seeing is the impact of trauma. Janyne knows that there are a lot of books out there that look at this situation through a spiritual lens, but, as she says, “No - we must look at it through a trauma lens.”
To purchase any of Dr. McConnaughey’s books, go the ATN’s bookshop at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork. To learn more about her, go to her website at https://www.janyne.org/.
Janyne says that “without ATN, this book would not have been written.” Thank you Janyne for your service to both ATN and the trauma- informed movement.
Ep 43 - Exploring the River of Cruelty
In this episode, Julie and Ginger welcome Rebecca Lewis-Pankratz into the studio to talk about the concept of the River of Cruelty. Rebecca fought her way out of poverty and now works with communities and school across the US to solve poverty and heal trauma. She is a Co-Founder of the ESSDACK Resilience Team. What exactly is the River of Cruelty? It is a model showing how cruelty is passed from person to person and from generation to generation. How do people get out of the River? Listen in to understand how the Resilience Team helps with that mission. The team’s motto is, “In order to create more positive outcomes for children, we must focus on transforming the adults who are important in those children’s lives.” Rebecca coined the popular Resilience phrase “I see you, I hear you, I am with you.” This is the foundation for building resilience in ALL kids, parents and school staff.
To learn more about the Family Peace Initiative, go to https://www.familypeaceinitiative.com/ and to learn more about ESSDACK, go to https://www.essdack.org/.
To register for ATN’s Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools Conference, go to https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/conference/.
Ep 42 - What is Blocked Care
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about the concept of “Blocked Care”. Drs. Daniel Hughes and Jonathan Baylin first coined this concept in their book, Brain Based Parenting. This book was written with foster parents in mind, but blocked care can also be experienced by teachers and other caregivers of children impacted by early childhood trauma. What exactly does blocked care mean to caregivers and how can we avoid it? What are the signs of blocked care? Julie says. “The first sign is when you are doing all the right things, but the child’s neurobiology is reacting negatively. Your brain begins to react because you aren’t getting a reciprocal relationship. You are going through the motions but begin to expect no connections. Basically, your heart suddenly isn’t in it anymore.” If this sounds like you, we want to assure you that you’re not alone. This happens almost instinctively as a way of protecting yourself, but Julie and Ginger discuss some ways to help you through it. Recognize that this is not unusual and there is no shame in feeling this way. This is how we are wired. Reach out to ATN! This is why we are here. We can help you find resources. To order a copy of the book, Brain Based Parenting, go to ATN’s bookstore at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork.
Ep 41 - Trauma-Informed Teaching and IEPs
In this episode of Regulated and Relational, Julie and Ginger invite long-time ATN friend, Dr. Melissa Sadin into the studio. Simply put, Dr. Sadin is a developmental trauma expert. Along with being a published author, Dr. Sadin also works as an educational consultant providing professional development to school districts and parents. She is a highly sought-after keynote speaker and conference presenter. Melissa was a core member of the creation of ATN’s Trauma Informed-Education program, the largest gathering of Trauma-Informed Educators dedicated to building Trauma-Reformed schools. Melissa’s latest book is titled Trauma Informed Teaching and IEPs: Strategies for Building Student Resilience.
In her book, Dr. Sadin outlines her CARES framework. She discusses each area of this framework, and she provides us with direct examples of the implementation. Melissa says, “A trauma informed IEP is simply an IEP written by trauma informed people.”
To learn more about Melissa’s work, visit her website at www.Traumasensitive.com. To order her book, go to ATN’s bookshop: https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork. Here you will find a great collection of trauma-informed resources.
And for you parents – this book has great resources for use in the home as well!
Ep 40 - What Makes Mr. Chazz Tick?
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Mr. Chazz Lewis into the studio. Mr. Chazz, a former Montessori school teacher, is an educational specialist, a keynote speaker, a parent consultant, and an influencer on social media. He is basically a dynamo, and his charisma is infectious!
Mr. Chazz discusses his concept of “See, Guide, Trust”. He acknowledges that there is no guidebook, so we need to make ourselves vulnerable and open to truly “see” the child. We then need skills to effectively “guide” them. Lastly, we need to “trust” that children are doing the best that they can. This shift is really about trying to understand the child and we must step in with curiosity.
When the pandemic came along, everything changed for schools and parents, and that was when Mr. Chazz decided to go on social media. To learn more about Mr. Chazz, go to his website: https://mrchazz.com/. From there, you can navigate to all his great social media posts.
Mr. Chazz says, “I’m really thankful for the kids that challenged me because it forced me to learn and grow.”
Mr. Chazz will be joining us at our 6th annual Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools Conference in February 2023. To learn more, go to https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/conference/.
Ep 39 - The Regulated Classroom
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Emily Daniels into the studio to talk about how to create a regulated classroom. Emily is a trainer, consultant, facilitator, leader, and author. Her book, The Regulated Classroom, Bottom Up Trauma-Informed Teaching, is a framework to help educators (classroom teachers, counselors, psychologists, OTs, para professionals, etc.) understand how to help themselves and their students regulate. She lays out four core practices that educators need to implement.
Emily says, “The adults are the beginning of all change. Emotions are contagious and the adult must be the co-regulator.” We find that hope inducing!
To learn more about Emily and her endeavors, go to her website at https://regulatedclassroom.com/. From there you can find out more about her trainings and order her book.
Emily will be joining ATN in Houston, TX in February of 2023 at our Creating Trauma-Sensitive Schools Conference as a Silver Sponsor! We are so excited about this opportunity to learn more about her work! See you there Emily!
If you are interested in learning more about our upcoming TSS Conference, go to https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/conference/. We hope to see you there as well!
Ep 38 - Brain-Body Parenting
In this episode, Julie and Ginger invite Dr. Mona Delahooke into the studio. Dr. Delahooke discusses how to raise joyful and resilient children – and isn’t that the goal of us all! She is the author of three books, Social and Emotional Development, Beyond Behaviors, and Brain-Body Parenting, which was recently released. Mona says that we must remember, “We are never just a brain - our bodies instruct our brain.” So, what does that mean? How do our bodies instruct our brain? It is all about body budgeting! Everything that happens to us is either a withdrawal or a deposit into or out of our nervous system. We need to be conscious of the body budgeting of ourselves and our children. But remember - Its very individualized. There is no one way. Just know - no one can pour from an empty cup!
To purchase Dr. Delahooke’s books, go to ATN bookshop: https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork. Here you will find the largest collection of trauma related resources. You can also visit her website at https://monadelahooke.com/.
Ep 37 - Serve and Return
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about the concept of Serve and Return. This notion was introduced through the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University. Harvard defines serve and return as “responsive interactions between children and the people who care for them and how those interactions help the children grow and reach their full potential.” So, what does that actually look like? Ginger outlines the five steps of serve and return and explains how we can implement them into our daily lives. Listen in to learn how to recognize what our children are serving to us and how we can return to them. At its core, it is all about attachment. Every child needs someone who is crazy about them, so go and be crazy about your kid!!!
Check out the website for the Center on the Developing Child for more incredible resources. https://developingchild.harvard.edu/
Ep 36 - Therapeutic Parenting 102
In this episode, Julie and Ginger continue their discussion of therapeutic parenting. If you are caring for a child with a trauma history, you know that therapeutic parenting is needed for the long haul, and we must make these strategies work. Co-regulation is vital, but how can we achieve it with our children? Ginger says, “We need to understand what a child can do and what they can’t do.” When they are in a position of fight, flight, or freeze, they can’t do what we are asking of them. Co-regulation is the answer to helping them get out of those states. Julie and Ginger also discuss the concept of do-overs and we all need do-overs in our lives!
Please reach out to us with your therapeutic parenting questions. We would love to help you. The Attachment & Trauma Network has a great many resources at our fingertips. Send an email to heart@attachtrauma.org. That’s what we are here for!
Ep 35 - Therapeutic Parenting 101
In the next two episodes, Julie and Ginger deep dive into the concept of therapeutic parenting. The healing of childhood trauma comes directly from relationships and a child’s biggest relationship is with their parents. We must be the buffer for the child. This is how resilience is created. Ginger says, “This is all about rewiring the child’s brain.”
The number one tenet of therapeutic parenting is safety. Safety always comes first. Listen in to learn what it means to have felt safety by all family members.
Hear what becoming a major league parent is all about! But... know that this hard work and we must give ourselves a lot of grace!
To order ATN’s Parenting Cards, go to our on-line store at: https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/atn-store-parents/. You can find many great resources there!
Ep 34 - Helping Teen Brains with Improv
In this episode Julie and Ginger welcome Scott Kuenneke and Mary DeMichele into the studio.
Scott is an integral part of the CALO Programs Residential Treatment Facility clinical team and he oversees all Neurofeedback and QEEG brain maps for assessment and treatment. Mary developed “One Rule Improv”, a trauma-informed method of improv that creates a neurobiological change in the brain. Her method is used in classrooms, outpatient programs, foster care groups, group homes, RTCs and corporations.
The combined knowledge of these two individuals is amazing. They have aligned the techniques and strategies of improv with what actually happens in the brain and how that can become a healing tool.
Mary says that improv is great in the classroom because, “No matter what mood the students are in when they enter the classroom, improv puts everyone in a better state.”
To get more information about Mary’s method, go to www.OneRuleImprov.com. You can also email her directly at mary@oneruleimprov.com.
Join us on October 14 for our Compliance to Compassion event, a full day virtual event focusing on hope, reframing our lenses, and compassionate solutions in schools. Hope to “see” you there!
Ep 33 - A New School Year: Hopes and Challenges
Julie and Ginger invite Sandra Lake and James Moffett into the studio. They are both awesome trauma informed educators, and in this episode, they are discussing what it is like in schools this year versus last year. They both agree that safety and security are paramount, but how can that be accomplished in a non-traumatizing way? – Relationships. Its all about relationships. Sandra says, “Whatever amount of time you spend building relationships with your kids, double it. Double that time because the payout is huge.” James says that his school is making a move from focusing on “every” student to focusing on “each” student.
Listen in to find out what is a walk and talk, what is a tap in tap out, what is a hang out, what is a flip flop. These are the techniques they are using in their schools to help regulate not only the students, but also the staff.
What incredible words of wisdom they share!
Ep 32 - Secondary Traumatic Stress
In this episode, Julie and Ginger discuss Secondary Traumatic Stress. This is a hard topic to talk about, but it is so important. Ginger says, “Secondary traumatic stress is a very real thing, especially for caregivers and teachers who work with children impacted by trauma.”
Secondary traumatic stress is sometimes called vicarious trauma, compassion fatigue, or even burnout. It occurs when you feel emotions from knowing about a traumatizing event that was experienced by another person. The best way to combat secondary traumatic stress is self-care. Self-care is about the nurturing of your body, mind, and spirit. Julie and Ginger outline the top ways to take care of yourself.
Listen in for some self-care strategies Figure out what works for you and begin to practice. “Practice” is the key word there. We will not be accomplished at self-care right away. It does take practice!
And… If you are a teacher, we have a great event just for you! Compliance to Compassion is a one-day virtual event focusing on managing behaviors in the classroom on Friday October 14th. There is an outstanding line up of speakers! Click here to learn more and to register: https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/compliance-to-compassion-fall-event-supports-teachers-in-virtual-event/
Ep 31 - School Resource Officer & Trauma-Informed School Safety, talking with Becky Haas
Today Julie and Ginger welcome Becky Haas into the studio. Becky’s background is in working with Resource Officers in schools by training them to become trauma informed. Her training has become a model for cities nationwide. Through her position as the Director of the Crime Prevention Program in Tennessee, she saw a reduction in drug related crime by 40% in one neighborhood. That is huge!
Trauma informed approaches are often not taught to officers despite their close presence with students. Becky believes that police officers want to do a great job, they just need training on the impact of trauma. She also believes that getting representatives from the community to come together with a common focus is vital. Becky says, “Crime prevention can’t only involve police. This is community work!”
To learn more about Becky Haas and her work, go to www.BeckyHaas.com. Her site is rich with information. You can also reach out directly to her from her web page.
Join us for largest gathering of trauma sensitive educators at our upcoming Creating Trauma Sensitive Schools Conference in February 2023. Registration is now open at www.attachtrauma.org/conference.
Ep 30: Advocating against Restraint & Seclusion - a conversation with Guy Stephens
Julie and Ginger welcome ATN friend Guy Stephens into the studio. Guy is a lifelong Marylander, a father, a husband and a child advocate. He began by advocating for appropriate accommodations and supports for his neurodivergent son, which led him to found the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint. He is working to change policy and practices around the use of seclusion and restraint at the local, state, and federal levels. Guy says, “The biggest thing you have to change is the culture. You have to get buy-in from superintendents, school administrators, and others.” We do have a lot of paradigm shifting to do.
The website for the Alliance Against Seclusion and Restraint is www.EndSeclusion.org. The organization also has a presence on FaceBook, Instagram, LinkedIn and YouTube. You can email Guy directly at guystephens@endseclusion.org
Join us on Friday, October 14 for Compliance to Compassion, a virtual learning event for teachers, paraprofessionals and all educators needing support and ideas in these challenging times. Click to register: https://events.zoom.us/e/view/vSrc1zKiSR2VoOCQ9NDobg
Ep. 29: Boundaries
In this episode, Julie and Ginger are discussing boundaries. They got a lot of insight from Brene Brown’s book, Atlas of the Heart. ATN’s Team R&R, an online community for educators, did a weekly dive into this great book. The recordings of the book study are available to Team R&R members.
Why is it so hard to set boundaries? Why is it the most hard for the givers? Why are boundaries so important? Brene says, “Boundaries are a prerequisite for compassion and empathy. You can’t connect with someone unless you are clear on where you end and where they begin.” Boundaries make us more authentic and build trust. These are traits that are vital to us all. Listen in and learn a new way of thinking about boundary setting.
To order your copy of Brene Brown’s Atlas of the Heart, visit ATN’s bookstore at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork. Here you will find the largest collection of trauma focused books.
To learn more about Team R&R, go to https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/teamrr/. Click Join Team R&R to gain access to a library of Trauma Sensitive School resources.
Ep 28: The Challenges of Using Praise
Today Julie and Ginger talk about praise and how to use it effectively in the home and in the classroom. They also discuss some of the challenges of praise, especially with children from a history of trauma. Why do our children often reject praise? How does encouragement differ from praise? What are some techniques you can use? First and foremost, praise MUST be sincere and sometimes you must approach praise from a counter intuitive lens. Our hosts share some ideas of how to do this, specifically by using drive by praising and indirect praising. Listen in for examples.
Visit ATN’s on-line store and view our Connected Messages Post It Notes at https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/product/post-it-notes/. These notes pack a powerful punch.
And … Be sure to leave us feedback because we can always use a little praise (or constructive feedback) ourselves!
Ep 27: Disappointment and Expectations
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about their latest book study, Atlas of the Heart, by Brene Brown. ATN’s Team R&R, an online community for educators, is doing a weekly dive into this great book. One part of this book really stood out to Julie and Ginger, the chapter on Disappointment, Unmet Expectations and Regret. They said that we all have movies running in our heads showing the outcomes we expect, however, since life doesn’t always play out as expected, that leads to disappointment. Unexpressed expectations can lead to these disappointments. Communication is one key to alleviate it. Ginger’s favorite quote in this chapter from Brene is, “There are too many people in the world today who decide to live disappointed, rather than risk the feeling of disappointment.” Wow. What a quote that is!
To order your copy of Brene Brown’s Atlas of the Heart, visit ATN’s bookstore at https://bookshop.org/shop/AttachmentTraumaNetwork. Here you will find the largest collection of trauma focused books.
To learn more about Team R&R, go to https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/teamrr/. Click Join Team R&R to gain access to a library of Trauma Sensitive School resources.
Ep 26: The Special Attachment Window of Young Adulthood: An Interview with Jack Hinman, Psy.D.
In this episode, Julie and Ginger welcome Jack Hinman into the studio. Jack is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and he has been providing mental health services to individuals and families for over 20 years. Jack specializes in Attachment Theory and Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). He focuses on helping young adults launch into adulthood through an attachment focused lens. Jack says that, “Connection is both the outcome and the intervention.” In mid-June, the Engage Transitions facility will be opening in Cedar City, Utah. This is a therapeutic community that gives young adults the confidence to safely explore their environment. The goal is to have the young adults create their own social networks using Engage as their secure base. To learn more about Engage, go to www.engagelifenow.com. You can also email Jack at Jack@engagelifenow.com. Jack proudly proclaims, “Attachment is my language.”
Ep 25: The Dangers of Social Media for our Teens- A Conversation with Jethro Jones
In this episode, Julie and Ginger welcome Jethro Jones into the studio to discuss social media and its impact on traumatized children. Jethro is the 2017 NASSP Digital Principal of the Year. He is a former principal and host of Transformative Principal. He is the founder of the Center for Cyber Ethics, an independent nonpartisan educational institute. He is an author of 2 books: SchoolX: How Principals Can Design a Transformative School Experience for Students, Teachers, Parents – And Themselves and How to be a Transformative Principal. Additionally, he works as a consultant in school systems. Jethro says. “We can’t expect children to do things that they aren’t ready for” and social media is one of those things. Jethro lays out some strategies for parents and teachers on how to help children navigate the social media world.
You can reach out directly to Jethro and order his books at www.JethroJones.com.
Ep 24: Using Stories to Heal: A Conversation with Jane Samuel
In this episode, Julie and Ginger have long-time ATN friend, Jane Samuel in the studio. Jane is a marriage and family associate whose practice focuses on children and families with an attachment-focused lens. Many of her clients are foster and adoptive families. In this episode, she talks about the value of narratives and storytelling. What exactly is a narrative? How can this be used in healing? Storytelling is useful in all settings – by parents, by teachers, and by clinicians. Jane also suggests that caregivers use books to open up discussions of hard topics. Jane has compiled a list of books that she recommends, organized by topics and feelings. For a list of books that Jane recommends, go here: https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/Janes-book-list.pdf.
According to Dr. Curt Thompson, “We are the only mammals that narrate our lives.” What a gift we have!
Ep 23 Restorative (and Trauma-Informed) Practices in Schools: An Interview with Joe Brummer
In this episode, Ginger and Julie dive into Restorative Practices with Joe Brummer in the studio. Joe is an expert in developing trauma-informed and restorative approaches in schools and organizations. He is a consultant and author of the book, Building a Trauma-Informed Restorative School. This book can be ordered from ATN’s bookstore at Building a Trauma Informed Restorative School. Joe is also a member of ATN’s PD Collaborative, a group of trauma-informed educational experts available to provide PD training, consultation and support to school districts and organizations embarking on becoming trauma-informed.
Joe explains what Restorative Practices are and how these practices are implemented in schools. How do these practices differ from punitive practices and why do they work? Joe says, “The paradigm shift is the knowledge that the wrong-doing caused a break in relationships, not a break in rules.”
To get more information, or reach out to Joe, go to JoeBrummer.com.
For more information about ATN’s PD Collaborative, go here: https://www.attachmenttraumanetwork.org/atn-announces-new-pd-collaborative/.
Ep 22 - The Balance of Structure and Nurture
In this episode, Julie and Ginger talk about the delicate balance between structure and nurture. What are the differences in punishment, consequences, accountability, and discipline? These terms are defined and discussed to determine what works best when doing trauma informed, therapeutic parenting and why. We should always seek to understand what is underneath the child’s behaviors, and we need to ask why they are acting the way that they do. As Julie said, “None of this is easy. It’s all about establishing a connection. This cannot be done without a relationship.” Check out the new book by Dr. Mona Delahooke, Brain-Body Parenting: How to Stop Managing Behavior and Start Raising Joyful, Resilient Kids. Dr. Delahooke says, “Human beings don’t develop new strengths without some level of stretching, but it must be individualized.” This book can be ordered from ATN's bookstore at Brain-Body Parenting.
This episode is dedicated to the trail-blazing trauma-informed and attachment-focused work done by Larry Smith, LCSW. (1951-2016)
Ep 21: Building Resilience during Covid...A Reflection on What We've Learned
In this episode, Julie and Ginger reflect on what our lives have been like dealing with Covid and building resilience throughout the pandemic. Ginger says that “It’s important to recognize that we can be both overwhelmed AND hopeful at the same time.” What is meant by holding space for others in a time of chaos? In her book, The Art of Holding Space, Heather Platt says that holding space means “being willing to walk alongside another person on whatever journey they are on.” Julie and Ginger also point out that it is vital to accept that the only way to handle this is to take care of ourselves. If we don’t take care of ourselves, we can’t hold space for others. Everything is relational! And remember, even in a time of grief, don’t forget to play! Play is a gift! To purchase a copy of Heather Platt’s book, go to: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Holding-Space-Liberation-Leadership/dp/1989603475.