The Substance

This week on The Substance, we are welcoming back a returning guest and talking about a book that has the best cover we've seen in quite some time! Courtney Ellis returns to the show and this time we are talking about her new book from InterVarsity Press, Looking Up: A Birder's Guide To Hope Through Grief. It's a beautiful book that is part memoir, part counseling session, and part sales pitch for the hobby of birding (Spoiler Alert: we have already downloaded the Merlin Bird ID app since our conversation with Courtney).

We also talk coffee vs. tea, how birding has positively impacted her life (including relationships that span ideological boundaries), natural theology and why we don't need to be afraid of it, the role of her grandparents in her formation, and much more! Courtney is also the first guest we have had who has nerded out with my son about their mutual affinity for the Wild Kratts (stay tuned to the end).

We hope you enjoy the show and if you do, we invite you to write a 5-star review and share it with a friend!

Nate is a creator whose work I've followed for almost 15 years and it was an absolute pleasure to sit down and talk with him about his work and the substance behind it. I first encountered his work in Jeff Lemire's acclaimed Vertigo Comics series Sweet Tooth (still need to check out the Netflix adaptation). His style really spoke to me so I went back and read his debut graphic novel, Swallow Me Whole, which won the Eisner Award for Best Original Graphic Novel, and I was in for pretty much everything he made after that.

Most folks know of Nate because of the March trilogy that he did with civil rights advocate and United States Congressman John Lewis and Andrew Aydin. The three graphic novels were massively successful in both critically and commercially but they also have been influential in communicating an important national story and inspiring folks to join the cause and work for a better future. The March books won multiple Eisners (the comic industry equivalent of The Oscars), The Coretta Scott King Award, and made Nate Powell the first cartoonist to win a National Book Award.

We talk about the impact of these books on his life and career as well as the themes of militarism and how war and violence can become culturally pervasive (he shares a great story of getting a positive review from G.I. Joe creator Larry Hama on one of his books dealing with this), how we need to take care to always be pursuing justice and sticking up for folks who can't do it for themselves, as well as being intentional in teaching these values to the next generations.

We hope you enjoy the episode and if you do, be sure to share it with your friends!

Valentine's Day comes and goes every year and it's easy to either dismiss it as a commercialized event or to get swept up in the sentimentality depending on one's disposition, but we wanted to avoid both extremes and try to focus on true, genuine love. And we do, buuuut take quite an enjoyable detour on to topics of art, commerce, comic books, and more!

We are joined by artist, curator, and author Ned Bustard. Ned is a longtime artist and printmaker who has been on a run the last few years with children's books at IVP. His book on Saint Nicholas launched IVP Kids two years ago and last year he came out with one on Saint Patrick (a favorite in the Marinello house) and now we have Saint Valentine. Tune in to see what may be next if folks continue to buy these books!

Welcome to The Substance, a variety podcast aimed at being biblical, thoughtful, and human where we seek to engage the culture without the Culture War™. Previous guests include folks like: Johnna Harris (The Bodies Behind the Bus podcast), Daniel Hill (White Awake & White Lies), Esau McCaulley (Reading While Black), Jemar Tisby (The Color of Compromise & How To Fight Racism), and multi-hyphenate artist Propaganda.

Grief is a topic that we have circled on a number of previous episodes and this week it's time to finally dedicate a whole show to it. It is something that many of us have not been properly educated on personally and communally. Hardships are nothing new to the human experience, but with the unique difficulties and risks of the day along with anemic to non-existent grief practices, the modern person is uniquely at risk for the negative effects of unprocessed pain and trauma.

We are joined for this conversation by author and spiritual director Terra McDaniel (shoutout to listener Summer for putting this book on our radar!). Terra has been through her share of grief and it has caused her to lean into it and not only discover and redeem practices of lament for herself, but she has built a ministry in helping equip others to deal with these things as well. The book is simple and extremely practical (and short!) and it's a great resource for a small group or book club type setting with others who are looking to grow in this area.

If you enjoy our conversation, please consider sharing it with a friend and hitting the 5 star button on your podcast app so that it will help others find it as well!

Merry Christmas, y'all! It's been an eventful year and we hope that you all have a nice time of rest over the holiday season.

We are joined by Matt Martens to discuss his new book from Crossway Publishing, Reforming Criminal Justice: A Christian Proposal. Matt is a lawyer who also has degrees in theology and has become passionate about justice and helping folks understand how broken our systems of so called "criminal justice" in America are.

This was a particularly encouraging discussion as many of our previous conversations about justice on the podcast have been with folks who have more or less been kicked out of or made to feel unwelcome in conservative evangelical spaces. Matt positions himself as someone coming to his fellow White conservatives to help inform them of the reality of the situation and we very much hope that his voice will be listened to on this matter!

Things are a little crazy right now and Editor Dave is in between tech setups so rather than take a week off, we wanted to give you all something new to the main feed that most of you probably haven't heard yet.

A few weeks ago we had film critic, podcaster, and author Sarah Welch-Larson on to talk about Ridley Scott's Alien and it was a blast! We also recorded this bonus show for our patrons on her book Becoming Alien that covers the whole franchise. Since our schedule has been hectic and we're a little compromised tech-wise, we thought we'd put this up for everyone to enjoy (and so that we don't blow our streak of never missing a regular episode drop)!

Christmastime is right around the corner and we thought about saving this one for another drop or two but we thought it was great conversation and wanted to encourage you all to check out Emily's new book as you prepare for the season.

Emily Hunter McGowin is an author, associate professor of theology at Wheaton College, a priest (she's married to one as well), and canon theologian in the Anglican diocese of Church for the Sake of Others. Her book on Christmas is the latest entry in InterVarsity Press's Fullness of Time series and we couldn't recommend it higher as we approach Christmas.

If you're encouraged, please consider sharing it with a friend and leaving a 5 star review on Apple/Spotify!

Previous Fullness of Time Conversations:

After a few serious health scares and wildfires that caused him and his family to evacuate their home for a while, we are very excited to bring you our first conversation with artist and writer Josh Nadeau! Josh is an artist who runs the Sword and Pencil Instagram account where he regularly shares his drawings, writings, and the things that he's learning as he reads widely through Church History.

Horror movies often engage their audience on a primal level as they delve into some of our deepest fears, so it's understandable why so many people are sensitive to them and have reservations concerning them. This appears to be doubly true (or more) of people of faith.

Returning guest Josh Larsen is the perfect person to have join us for this topic! Josh is a Chicago film critic and longtime cohost of the prestigious Filmspotting podcast, an editor & podcast host for Think Christian, as well as the author of Movies Are Prayers and the newly published Fear Not! A Christian Appreciation of Horror Movies.

We discuss the question of why anyone, particularly people of faith, would want to watch horror movies then we dive right in and talk about the unique themes and insights that we can gain from engaging critically with horror subgenres like slashers, monster movies, "sex and death," prophetic horror, and more! His book is an excellent introduction to the topic for the horror newbie as well as a good resource for the horror fan who is interested in thinking more deeply about the genre.

Enjoy and be sure to share the show with a friend!

All 4 Terraform EPs are now out in the world, along with a Nautilus Award winning book, so we figured it was time to have Propaganda back on the show!

In 2020, a very normal and chill time, Kaitlyn Schiess released her first book, The Liturgy of Politics. It was thoughtful and encouraging call to believers to approach their politics, particularly locally, in a way that actively honors God and prioritizes the well-being of our neighbors. We were privileged to have her on the show and talk about that book and those ideas (link below) and we have been waiting for her follow-up book ever since!

Now, just a couple weeks away from the wide release of her second book, The Ballot and the Bible, we are excited to have her return (along with Trevor Akin making his guest host debut)! We talk about the history of the use of Scripture in American politics, the importance of community in biblical interpretation, the price of critical thinking, and more.

Be sure to tag us and Kaitlyn when you share this on social media (and tell her "Happy Birthday!") and look out for a chance to win a copy of TBatB later this week on Instagram & Twitter!

Kaitlyn's Previous Appearance:

Earlier this year, we were joined by Dr. Esau McCaulley (one of our favorite episodes we've done!) to talk about his new little book on Lent which kicked off InterVarsity Press's The Fullness of Time series. Now we're excited to continue on to the second entry, Pentecost, written by Bishop Emilio Alvarez.

In addition to Pentecost, we spend much of our time on a favorite topic of ours here at The Substance- Christian unity. Bishop Alvarez has been engaged in ecumenical ministries for quite a while, so much so that about 10 years ago he was invited to The Vatican to engage with The Pope and other church leaders on the topic of unity (which we absolutely talk about)!

Spiritual abuse is something we have talked about many times on the show, and on this episode we are joined by someone who, after enduring this herself, decided to make it her mission to help others who have as well by giving them a platform to tell their stories. Johnna Harris launched The Bodies Behind The Bus podcast at the end of 2021 and for the last year and a half has helped to share survivor stories in order to fight for goodness and truth in the Church.

We talk systems & structures and why broken ones are so difficult to improve, cultivating spiritual communities where it's safe to be our whole selves as we seek to grow, when it's best to take a cue from the prophet Malachi and just shut a church or ministry down, and most importantly why folks struggling to hold on to their faith can have hope.

If our conversation blesses you please consider texting the episode to a friend!

Shoutouts:

Ted Lasso

Hey everyone! We thought it would be nice to take an episode and do a check in with ourselves and you all. Philip and Dave are hard at work putting things together for first few months of our 3.0 era and we wanted to let you all in on the conversation.

They go a little into the history of our first two incarnations but the bulk of the time is spent talking vision and goals for the podcast, our commitment to telling compelling, God-honoring stories, and the growth of local communities that are formed in order to benefit everyone in their proximity.

We have some exciting episodes/guests on the schedule and some that we have already recorded with and we look forward to continuing to encourage curious, thoughtful folks for many more seasons to come!

Shoutouts:

We're still here! Our 2.0 era has come to a close but I'm very grateful to bring you all the next episode without interruptions!

Today I'm joined by the Rural Church Voices team which consists of returning guest Olivia Meade, Will Basham, and Jason Cook. All three of them have released books individually (check out Ep #117 to hear us talk Ordinary Faithfulness with Olivia), and now they have gotten together to edit Church Out Here. Church Out Here is a great little resource for both pastors and members of rural churches who are looking to be faithful to God and to one another. In addition to our three guests, contributors include Christian Crouch, Sam Byers, Jim Drake, Michael Meadows, Ricky Love, Chris Priestly, Justin Honaker, Danny Rumple, and Seth Polk.

Whether you find yourself in a big city or a small town, we hope you are encouraged!

Shoutouts:

Happy Easter, everyone! We hope you have had a refreshing Lenten season and that your Easter celebrations today were encouraging and soul-stirring.

On this episode we welcome back longtime friend of the show, Brett McCracken (who was our first guest), back for his fifth appearance on The Substance. Brett is a writer, a film critic of 15+ years, and he's currently a Senior Editor at The Gospel Coalition where he covers culture and the arts. Previously, we've looked at three other Malick films (links below) and one that was very much Malick adjacent (Minari, also below).

This time, we're going back to the beginning. 50 years ago, Terrence Malick's Badlands debuted at the New York Film Festival where it was the star of the show, even overshadowing Martin Scorsese's Mean Streets in the eyes of many. Badlands is an impressionistic reimagining of the Charles Starkweather story. It's one forgotten to many now, or mainly known because of this film, but to the generation of filmgoers in the early 70s, this was a chilling and familiar story that was deeply tied into American culture.

It's topic toss up time again, and Trevor & Philip are back with one topic suggested by an audience member and one of their own!

The Super Bowl was a great time this year. It was great to see the Chiefs win again, especially so due to a bet with the TGAT podcast. One of the "hot topics" that folks were talking about in the aftermath was the commercials that ran a few times during the game...for Jesus? The "He Gets Us" ads got a wide variety of responses and since a listener here in KC asked, that's up first!

Secondly, a topic that has come up tangentially before but one not discussed specifically, it's time to talk about a theology & practice of discipleship. What is the goal of discipleship? How do we pursue it and practice it with folks who are seeking guidance from us? How do we determine whether or not we are engaging in it successfully? Etc.

It's always fun to do these and if you have anything you'd like us to cover in future TTUs, shoot us a message (info below)!

If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a rating & review on iTunes or Spotify and sharing with a friend!

Links

"Politics" is something that many people like to shy away from engaging directly in their public platforms and personas, and some elect to abstain from even discussing it with their friends and family. It's also something that churches often like to refrain from addressing in their preaching and ministries. Yet, it's in inescapable reality of living in a time and place. Furthermore, it's something that churches are necessarily affecting. 

In White Evangelical American churches there is a reliable partisan voting block (94% of that demographic votes for 1 party), many receive pressure to talk about hot button culture war issues like CRT, abortion, books in schools etc., often a church's library is stocked with one-sided views on cultural issues, and it is a common view among a congregation and leadership that one of the two major American parties is immoral, or markedly more immoral than the other. This is politically forming whether pastors/leaders like to think of themselves as a "political church" or not.

Wherever you locate yourself in this discussion, we hope it's edifying to you and would love to hear your feedback! 

Shoutouts:

Trevor: MLS Season Pass

It's always fun to have a returning guest back with us and today we are pleased to welcome friend of the show Jesse Eubanks back for his fourth full episode with us! 

Jesse is the Founder & Executive Director of Love Thy Neighborhood, host of the Love Thy Neighborhood & The EnneaCast podcasts, and now he's the author of How We Relate: Understanding God, Yourself, and Others through the Enneagram ( pub. Zondervan). 

Since we've already done an episode on the enneagram itself (also with Jesse!), we didn't spend much time on going deep into it here, instead we focused on Jesse's approach in the book of using it as a tool to better understand God and humanity. Listeners may have recently seen or heard artist/author/speaker/etc. Jackie Hill Perry speak out strongly against the enneagram (2 weeks before the book's release). Jesse opens up about what that was like and some of the effects it has had honestly and humbly. He will also be following up on her statements specifically on a future episode of Truth Over Tribe. 

We hope you enjoy our discussion with Jesse! If you do, be sure to share with a friend and on social media and please consider joining us as a monthly or one off supporter.

Previous Episodes:

It is such a pleasure to share our conversation with Dr. Esau McCaulley with you all this week! Reading While Black was a huge book for us and we have been trying to get him on the show for a little over two years so this was a real joy for us and we hope it is for you too.

Dr. McCaulley is currently a Theologian in residence at Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago, a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times whose work has also appeared in The Atlantic, Washington Post, and Christianity Today, he is also the author of four previous books which have won numerous awards, with more books on the way!

We talk about the resurgence of the Liturgical Calendar in the broader American religious context, the new Fulness of Time series on it from IVP of which Esau's new book Lent kicks off, the biblical imperatives to pursue justice, MLK, the benefits of finding and committing to a refreshing local assembly of believers, and more.

Enjoy the show, grab some of his books, and share with a friend!

Use code: "SUBPOD" at checkout on IVP's website for 30% off + free shipping on all of Esau's books that we talked about on this episode. Sale is running for the next month (2/12 - 3/12). 

On this episode of "The Substance," Trevor and Philip dive into the highly anticipated and box office-breaking (already the 4th highest grossing film of all time!) sequel to James Cameron's blockbuster hit Avatar, "Avatar 2: The Way of Water." We discuss the advancements in technology and filmmaking as well as the deeply human themes that have made it so resonant with audiences around the world.

Next, the conversation shifts to the topic of nepotism in Hollywood and sports. The hosts touch on some recent headline events in US Soccer and how it relates to the larger conversation of "nepo babies" in the entertainment industry. They offer insights both on the ways in which nepotism can be detrimental to diversity and representation, how in many ways it's an unavoidable reality, and how it can be addressed in the future.

If you have a topic/guest suggestion for a future show send us a DM, email, or leave us a voicemail and if you like the podcast, share it with a friend!

Links: https://www.vulture.com/article/what-is-a-nepotism-baby.html

Shoutouts:

Philip: The Banshees of Inisherin (Currently streaming on HBO Max)

Happy New Year, everyone! We hope you all had a nice holiday season and that you had, or are planning to make, some time set aside for reflecting on what you went through in 2022 and to plan for what you would like to focus on in 2023.

It's been a while since we have had back to back episodes in the same format (if you're new to The Substance, we're a variety show with 4 formats that we try to have a decently even mix of), but the Substantive Cinema episode that we'll be dropping on the 15th, which has an unintentional connection with this one, seemed like an odd choice for a New Year's Day release. But we love good books and you love good books so we're excited to share this one with you!

Olivia Meade is a wife, mother, church leader, and in May of 2022 she released her first book, Ordinary Faithfulness: How Your Ordinary Life Reflects an Extraordinary God. It was published by Rural Church Voices, a "small collaboration of leaders who care deeply for the rural church and long to provide voices of support through writing, speaking, and practical training." We love the model of people writing to edify The Church rather than trying to top bestseller lists or build a brand. Olivia cares about building up the regular women and men who fill our churches and to encourage them in their day to day lives. We love this and hope you are encouraged too!

Happy Holidays, Substance fam! We hope you are all enjoying the holiday season and carving out time for joy and contemplation along with all the festivities that go along with it. For our last show of 2022 we wanted to take an episode and devote it to the Advent & Christmas season and to do so, we invited a guest! Bette Dickinson is an artist and author from Traverse City, Michigan and she just released a beautiful new Advent devotional from InterVarsity Press, "Making Room in Advent: 25 Devotions For a Season of Wonder." 

The book begins each day's reading with a painting to stop and reflect on and invite the reader to engage in visio divina (Latin: divine seeing). We talk with Bette about her art and how engaging with it can help us in ways that a merely textual devotional may not, how the incarnation spotlights the lowly &  underrepresented, the joys of slowing down during the holiday season, and more!

We hope you have had a wonderful year and we look forward to being back in your feed on New Year's Day. Merry Christmas!

Links/Resources:

Since our first episode, we've been focusing on being faithful in the political sphere without becoming partisan or falling into political idolatry. It's something we have come back to many times and it's where we find ourselves again at #115. Recently, National Conservatism had one of their national conferences in Miami and more than a few aspects of it were troublesome and alarming. From pastors sharing the stage with brazenly dishonest and power hungry politicians, to folks in high standing at one of the world's most influential seminaries spouting literal KKK talking points, to the baptizing of people and ideas that are plainly opposed to God's character merely because of political identity, and more. 

If you watched or read any of the speeches or read the statement, we'd love to hear from you! Send us a voicemail or an email with your thoughts and you just might make it on to a future show!

Vincent was off on a tropical vacation when we recorded this, so it's The Substance 1.0 team on this Topic Toss Up! This time around we're considering "family worship" and taking a listener question about Fundamentalism. 

All of our lives are worship and much of family life is discipleship but is there something more specific and structured that we should all be striving for? Fundamentalism has a lot of connotations so how do the social, moral, and theological strains relate to one another? Join us as we discuss these things and be sure to chime in by sending us a voicemail, email, or messaging us on the socials.

Have a great week and we'll be back in your feed next week with a special Noirvember Substantive Cinema episode on the classic film, Double Indemnity.

It's October 2022 and Spooky Season is upon us once again! Horror films consistently deal with substantive themes but it can be easy to overlook them if it's not a genre one naturally gravitates to. This year we are excited to visit a classic film that is responsible for the modern conception of the zombie, George Romero's The Night of the Living Dead (1968). 

We are also happy to be joined by author and Filmspotting & Think Christian podcast host, Josh Larsen. Josh is a longtime horror lover and has an upcoming book next year about Christian reflections on horror movies. We talk horror film history and the contributions of George Romero, how the low budget nature of the film's production helped it gain classic status, the zombie as collective society, and how the inescapable realities of race in America gave NOTLD even more resonance when they cast Duane Jones in the lead as Ben.

Enjoy and be sure to hit us up with your feedback!

Past Substantive Cinema Horror Episodes:

There's a lot we want to avoid as we wade into the topic of sexual ethics but we figured that it was probably time to start. It's an important and inescapable part of living in society, especially if we are seeking to live in a manner that pleases God and honors our fellow man. Bear with us but please feel free to reach out with any suggestions or feedback after you've listened!

Shoutouts:

Philip: The Patient (TV Show)

We're back tossing it up with some new topics! This episode we talk about Matt Chandler's announcement about stepping back from ministry because of a (allegedly non-sexual, non-romantic) relationship with a woman and what that says about the state of many modern American churches. We also look toward the future and how augmented reality may affect how we relate with one another and even how we do spiritual formation. Finally, we look at how churches do and should function in regards to their affects on individuals and communities. 

If you have any thoughts on these topics or suggestions for future topics or guests, send us an email or a voicemail!

Shoutouts:

Homelessness is a serious and complex problem around the world and at home. It's also a problem that we have some powerful solutions available to us. This week we reflect on the topic with seminary graduate, homelessness advocate, and recently published author Kevin M. Nye. His new book Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call To End Homelessness is now available to buy and read and the final sentence in it's Amazon description is: "This thorough and intimate book shows us that from the margins, Jesus has something to teach us all about grace--something that could change the landscape of homelessness entirely if we're ready to hear it."

We hope this is eye-opening, challenging, and ultimately encouraging as we all seek to think and live more like Christ in how we see and love those around us who are experiencing difficulties!

Shoutous:

Kevin: Spider-Man & Daredevil comics, Stranger Things & Only Murders in the Building

Trevor: "Ghosts" by August Burns Red

Philip: Goodnight Paradise by Joshua Dysart & Alberto Ponticelli (comic/graphic novel)

Vince: "Been Calling"  Maleek Berry

Follow Kevin: 

Overturning the United States Supreme Court ruling on Roe v. Wade has been something that anti-abortion folks have had their sights set on for years and recently, they seem to have got their way. On a previous Reflects show on abortion, we discussed aspects of why this was a goal and some potential issues with it but now it's a reality and the conversation is a lot more sobering.

We know that this issue is complex and none of us are legal experts (or women) but we hope that we're able to start the part of this conversation in a post-Roe world in a biblical, thoughtful, and human manner and we'd love for you to join us! Send us an email, DM, voicemail and join the discussion.

We realize it's been since April that we did our last Substantive Cinema (a great show with Tyler Huckabee that you should all listen to and share with others if you haven't yet!), the perils of pivoting release schedules but we're back on track with an excellent one!

Jordan Peele's 2017 directorial debut Get Out was a smash commercial and critical success (and we had Eugene Park on to discuss that back on Ep #62, link is below). Anticipation and expectations were high for his follow up two years later, and though his next effort, Us, released to very mixed reactions, there's an abundance of substance there and we had a great time revisiting it as we look forward to his next movie, Nope, releasing this coming weekend!

Give it a listen and send us an email or a voicemail and let us know what you thought of the film and our takeaways. And let us know if there's someone you think we should reach out to for inevitable SC episode on Nope!

We've been talking about doing this for a while now and a number of listeners have suggested it previously so we are very excited to bring you the first Substance Wives Takeover show! Sadly, we only have two thirds of our wives on this one but we think you're going to enjoy it! This week Anna Marinello & Christina Akin are joined by their friend and local Kansas City artist Crissi Curly to talk about her art and how she's chosen to use her platform to spotlight and promote joy and flourishing. 

Crissi's work is a blessing to us and we hope it's a blessing to you as well!

Shoutouts:

Beyonce

Kultivate Coffee