Next Stage Radicals

Claire Robinson is a social worker (by trade) who now works supporting organisations to create conditions for learning and authentic conversations.

Claire has worked in the voluntary and public sector for the last twenty years where she has trained social workers, led organisations supporting people whose families are affected by substance misuse, campaigned for better recognition of neurodiversity and supported organisations to use storytelling for change.

Claire is a certified Warm Data Host, a Daring Way, Dare to Lead Facilitator and is currently supporting organisations on the ground to explore a Human Learning systems approach to management.

You can find out more about Claire and her work:

Hosted by Mark Smith, this second podcast with Toby revisits the theme of Human Learning Systems to understand the latest developments in the field of designing, commissioning, delivering, managing and improving public services for the real world.

Toby is Visiting Professor of Public Management at the Centre for Public Impact and the main face, voice and agitator for the Human Learning Systems movement; an approach to public services which supports human freedom and flourishing by responding to the unique context of each and every person it supports - and in so doing creates better outcomes for less money.

Find out more and connect with Toby via:

Mark is the Director for Public Service Reform at Gateshead Council in the North East of England (UK). This is Mark's second podcast with Next Stage Radicals, revisiting the theme of bespoke-by-default public services and the ways in which these are radically different and cheaper than the conventional 'one size fits few' approach.

Mark read physics and geography at university before training as a meteorologist, latterly realising that wasn’t for him. He used his research and statistical skills as a researcher at Cheshire County Council to get a sense of the scale of inequality of opportunity and has been working ever since in a number of councils to design public services and partnerships that manifestly address this. He spent a few years as a management consultant working to explore approaches to systems thinking before coming back into the public sector to continue his work on services that understand and can help people each and every time.

His work on holistically supporting those with debt, who are homeless or who are generally going through tough times goes hand in hand with developing a more flexible and purpose driven workforce. He has previously worked in policing, health and the charity sector to develop his approach to saving money by doing the right thing.

His focus more recently has been on the mindset and values that are responsible for many of the obstacles to bespoke working. This means working with government in England and Scotland to take a Human Learning Systems approach to exploring the cultural and systemic issues that bar progress and create waste and suffering. He is currently the Senior Responsible Officer for Changing Futures Northumbria, a regional partnership focussing on adults who are having a hard time in life and for whom services do not work and have never worked.

You can find out more about Mark by:

Iain Caldwell has developed a career around creating new visions for organisations, practices and people that can enable them to work in more effective, innovative and insightful ways. This work began with himself, creating a better version that could overcome difficulties and challenging circumstances.

This personal change has inspired Iain to explore new ideas and connect with innovators from around the world.  This personal & professional learning has been developed into practices that can be used to transform charities, social enterprises, psychological therapy practices and community approaches to social injustices.

Iain is CEO of Let's Connect, and director of the CIC Starfish Health and Wellbeing.  He is director of APBA (Association of Practice Based Apprpoach), an organisation that delivers Practice-based Performance Coaching. He is also trainer and consultant.

Iain's current projects include LARCH (an initiative supporting the development of Social Enterprises) and Making Sense of.....  an initiative that is working to establish a new paradigm of  "mental health" and wellbeing.  Iain has a Professional Doctorate, MA in Management, PGCE and BSc (hons) in Applied Psychology.

Joy MacKeith has a background in the voluntary sector, in service delivery, research and consultancy. Twenty years ago her work on outcome measurement led to the co-creation of the Outcomes Star, now a suite of fifty tailored tools for supporting and measuring individual change.

She is author of the report ‘Enabling Help’ which draws on twenty years of working with the Outcomes Stars to present a critique of the system of social provision and a vision of how it could work better for the people it serves.

In this podcast she shares her radical idea that social provision today is based on ideas borrowed from other fields. They don’t fit the work of human services and are driving provision off course.  Instead of borrowing from elsewhere, we need to base services on what we know about human beings and what we all need to thrive.

To find out more about Joy and her work:

Jenny Rose Smith lives in West Wales and has committed her life to training both herself and other people to listen more deeply.

She’s passionate about centering deep listening as a powerful act of service, with its inherent fruit of present moment, attuned, honest and authentic connection with ourselves and each other.

Jenny has three decades of service management experience in the voluntary sector and 1-1 mentoring in educational support services. She now works in private practice offering therapeutic 1-1 and group listening sessions; and work-team based training.

In this podcast Jenny introduces her concept and model of 'Receptive Listening practice' ~ an exploration of the importance of how and where we listen from in ourselves to create a sustainable compliment to the more commonly taught active listening skills.

David Aula is the founder of Unfeasible. Unfeasible exists to create space in which people start to see that what they think of as ‘unfeasible’ can be done. Unfeasible combines insights and experience from personal, group and organisational development with the heart stopping potential of theatre to move from ’thinking’, through ‘feeling’, to ‘acting from who we really want to be as humans’. Unfeasible offers services at what David likes to call ‘All Quadrants, All levels”, borrowing from philosopher Ken Wilber. So they work with both individuals and collectives and from the inside, out as well as from the outside in.

In this podcast, David discusses his radical idea, that “art can be a beginning as well as an end in and of itself”, and that “peak experience can be harnessed to help to truly move us all”.

Andy Crosbie, Abby Taylor, and Anya Bonner run a community interest company called the Collective Impact Agency. The Collective Impact Agency exists primarily to help people and organisations deepen their impact through collaboration. They work on disrupting the systems that stand in the way of socially minded organisations and people doing what they’re there to do – make the world a fairer, more equal place.

They do this through building relationships between and within organisations, and asking big questions that challenge the status quo. They focus on supporting organisations to prioritise learning, running experiments in new ways of working with and relating to one another, and supporting others to do the same.

In this podcast, we explore the idea that ‘you can’t change systems without changing the organisations that make up those systems’ – and how the Collective Impact Agency is trying to operate in a fundamentally different way both internally and externally.

Connect with CIA via:

This month’s guest is Anna Whitehead. Anna is developing a portfolio career. As a qualified coach, with a Diploma in Executive coaching, she coaches individuals on work-related topics, while keeping a focus on the whole person.  She works as an Associate Coach for Genius Within, coaching neurodiverse adults to be the best they can be at work.

She is motivated to collaborate with others to improve things and also provides service improvement and change management consultancy grounded in systems thinking principles. She is keen to use her skills and expertise to help individuals, groups and organisations who aim to make a positive difference for others.

Anna has 15 years’ experience of working in local government, including roles where she worked closely with the NHS and charities. As a change management and service redesign specialist, Anna has facilitated managers and teams to design and deliver transformation projects. She has also held a role as Chair of Trustees and Director of a charity. This professional experience gives her in depth knowledge of how organisations work and different approaches to improvement, change and transformation. Anna is a member of the North West committee for The Association for Business Psychology.

In this podcast we explore where Anna’s curiosity has been taking her and the connections she is making in relation to some of the things she cares about; making society more inclusive for neurodiverse people, improving mental wellbeing at work and cultivating kindness.

Connect with Anna via:

This month’s guest is Dr Sarah Yardley. Sarah is a clinical academic, combining clinical practice as a Consultant in Palliative Medicine with a Honorary clinical senior lecturer position at UCL, where she holds a THIS Institute post-doctoral fellowship.

As a clinical academic, she’s interested in how people (patients, families, carers, and healthcare professionals) make sense of their experiences and how the meanings they create inform further actions, leading to a variety of consequences.

In this podcast we explore the importance of relationships in creating public services that work. Sarah introduces the concepts of 'relational reach' and 'relational glue' and we explore the challenging, real world situations that people find themselves in as they strive to do the right thing.

Connect with Sarah via:

This month’s radical is Steve Chapman.

Steve is an artist, writer and speaker interested in creativity and the human condition. He works as a consultant and coach with individuals and organisations who are interested in finding creative and counter-intuitive ways to free themselves from ever-tightening loops of common-sense where creativity, novelty and change are rather difficult.

Steve regularly give talks on creativity, spontaneity, human culture change, imperfection, stuckness, counter-culture, shame and the inner critic and is a regular guest on various podcasts. He has held roles as visiting faculty on MSc programmes at Ashridge Business School, the Metanoia Institute and Roffey Park, where he has taught spontaneity, working with uncertainty, facilitation and creative activism both in organisations and society in general. As an artist he has exhibited his work alongside the likes of David Shrigley and Pablo Picasso and has sold pieces across five continents.

Despite clearly knowing and doing A LOT, Steve describes himself as being at his best when he is on the edge of not quite knowing what he is doing.

Connect with Steve via:

This month’s guest is Gary Wallace. Gary works in the Office of the Director for Public Health in the city of Plymouth and is a member of the Plymouth Alliance Leadership Team. His work there, with colleagues from across communities and public services, has pioneered a radically different way of thinking about leading, commissioning and improving public services. As a founding member of the Human Learning Systems collaborative he generously shares and builds on the insights of that work with others, while continuing to support initiatives in Plymouth across a wide range of issues.

In this episode we discuss (i) appreciative listening as a strategy for 'at scale' transformation (ii) why programatic approaches to transformation fail (iii) why where you start doesn't matter.

This month’s guest radical is Joeri Torfs. Joeri's mission is to create frictionless person-to-person collaboration, unmediated by institutions and underpinned by a novel socio-economic model which enables people to adapt and self-manage in the face of life challenges. Together with his partner Pim Ampe, Joeri pursues this through his work as an enterprise architect and as Operational Director at the Quality of Life World Foundation.

In this episode we discuss (i) the presence of 'force' in our lives and how this is impacting our ability to meet our needs (ii) ways in which the 'next stage' is already here but not yet integrated (iii) the role of individual agency in making change (iv) opting out of the status quo while still remaining part of the world.

Find out more and connect with Joeri and Pim via:

This month’s guest radical is Adrian Brown. Adrian is Executive Director of the Centre for Public Impact (CPI) and has over 15 years' experience working on government performance and transformation in the UK and internationally. He has held a range of positions in the UK government, including stints at the Prime Minister's Delivery Unit, the Strategy Unit and as a policy adviser in the Prime Minister's Office. In his work at the Centre for Public Impact he is helping others to reimagine government in ways that embrace complexity, value relationships and prioritise learning. In this podcast we discuss this work and what it means to rethink government for a VUCA (volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous) world.

Find out more and connect with Adrian via:

This month’s radical is Owen Lewis, Assistant Director of Sports Systems, Strategy and Services at Sport Wales. Owen has been at the centre of work to reshape the role Sport Wales plays to become better adapted to complexity. This has led to some radical and ambitious changes to how Sport Wales and its partners are thinking about their roles, the way that funding works and how accountability should be operationalised together.

In this episode we explore (i) Why Sport Wales is doing this work (ii) How they and their partners are using data to improve, not prove (iii) How trust operationalises through learning and common purpose (iv) What it's like when the doubts creep in (v) And how doing this work has released creativity, energy and intrinsic motivation.

Find out more about this and related topics via:

Research has shown time and again that public service isn’t designed or managed for the real world. Toby Lowe believes there is a better way and it's called Human Learning Systems. Public service can support human freedom and flourishing by responding to the unique context of each and every person it supports - and in so doing can create better outcomes for less money.

Toby is Visiting Professor of Public Management at the Centre for Public Impact and the main face, voice and agitator for the Human Learning Systems movement. In this podcast we explore (i) how HLS differs from New Public Management (the status quo approach characterised by Markets, Managers and Metrics) (ii) why anchoring to the real lives of people through a learning relationship is the essential foundation for public service (iii) whether HLS is scalable and (iv) where the HLS approach is being pioneered.

Find out more and connect with Toby via:

This month's radical is Jose Leal. Jose started his first business at age 16. In his 20s, he co-founded Canada's first automotive media portal. After ten years with the media company that acquired it, he quit as VP. Corporate life had taught him how not to collaborate.

For nearly six years, Jose has focused on understanding human nature and collaboration, leading him to conclude that the fundamental challenge is to see our way out of 'the Force paradigm' and back to ourselves and each other.

What does that mean?

Not just 'no more bosses' but 'no more employees' either. Genuine human-to-human connection, mutuality and interdependence, fuelled by each person's sense of their unique 'radical purpose'.

Jose is now exploring how he can help people to do this through his work at Radical Purpose and through collaborations such as Society 2045. More via the links below.

Find out more about Jose:

This month's radical is Kathy Evans, Chief Executive at Children England, the membership body for children's charities. We explore Kathy's vision of a world where interdependence and collaboration are recognised as the cornerstone of public services; a world beyond markets and citizens-as-consumers, and a world where each child is supported to flourish within what Kathy calls 'the ChildFair State".

During her career as a social care practitioner and policy specialist, Kathy has been the Chair of the Standing Committee for Youth Justice, a trustee of the Children’s Rights Alliance for England, a member of the ACMD Hidden Harm group and DCSF Care Matters advisory group. She was a consultant to the Police Foundation and Justice, devising potential alternatives to Youth Courts, to support the Independent Commission on Youth Crime and Anti-Social  Behaviour. Kathy was named Children and Young People's Champion of the Year 2018, by the panel of young people who decide the Children & Young People Now Awards.

Kathy is also passionate about being a Humanist Celebrant, performing non-religious weddings and baby namings whenever she is able!

You can find out more about Kathy and her work:

Laura Seebohm is Executive Director for External Affairs at Changing Lives, a nationwide charity helping people facing challenging times to make positive change - for good. She has over 20 years’ experience in the statutory and voluntary sectors, working as a Probation Officer before joining Changing Lives in 2006. Laura developed particular expertise supporting women with experience of the criminal justice system, sexual exploitation and domestic abuse.

With experience of policy at a local and national level, multiple peer research projects, lived experience, inclusion and system change practices, Laura has found herself particularly drawn to the potential of Trauma-Informed Practice as a means to truly changing lives. This approach offers a strengths-based framework, grounded in an understanding of the impact of trauma in peoples lives, and helping them to rebuild a sense of what Laura refers to as 'being, becoming and belonging' in their lives.

In this episode I hear all about what led Laura to this approach, what she sees as its potential and what she and her colleagues at Changing Lives are doing to explore it in practice. 

Find out more about Laura via:

This month’s radical is J. Kim Wright. Kim is a legal systems entrepreneur - transforming the systems, ideas, approaches, and habits that have underpinned the legal system since… well, forever. Although based in the US, Kim’s work connects cutting-edge lawyers, like-minded professionals, and communities all over the planet. She writes extensively, teaches law, coaches and advises clients, hosts and mobilises action within the integrative law movement and plays a key role as a co-founder of the Conscious Contracts® process. She’s also been know to have a day off!

In this episode I sit back and relax as Kim tells me all about her journey through life. It's remarkable, inspiring and a perfect example of what's possible when we grab hold of our place in the world and don't let go.

Find out more about Kim:

For 28 years Paul Jocelyn's career was at Tesco. Working in a variety of roles he was part of an ambitious business, relentlessly pursuing change at its growing edge; a shift to online and digital, going international, diversifying into new retail models such as Tesco Local, Tesco Express and Tesco Direct, a shift from groceries to groceries + everything else, and much more besides.

In all of this Paul saw how learning and development at the growing edge of organisations needs to shift away from a centralised, standardised curriculum of learning in order to embrace something different, more agile and better adapted to the complex world of the 'next stage' business.

Paul now works as a consultant, helping organisations to rethink their approach to learning and development. His work is heavily influenced by his experiences and by the idea that, in order for organisations to compete in complexity, it is necessary for them to shift the learning relationship from something that is ‘done to’ learners to something that is learner led and anchored in the work.

You can find our more about Paul and his work via:

As a one-time business analyst in one of the world's largest institutions (Lloyds Banking Group), Alex Papworth knows how big business works. He's seen it from the inside. He's also seen where it doesn't always work so well; for the people in it, those affected by it and for the world around it.

Sitting at the centre of a £3bn transformation has given him a unique perspective. Understanding the importance of approaching change by looking at the world and his work in changing hearts and minds as a complex system left him with the question:

"What is the simplest, quickest and most intuitive way to help people understand the world, their work and themselves as a complex system?"

This question has led Alex to consider the interplay between the world of work and the world of nature; drawing him towards the (perhaps radical) conclusion that nature provides the ideal organising principles and the operating model for better ways to work... and that these are more-or-less opposite to the ones that govern most of our normal practice.

Spending time in nature and including it in our 'practice' also helps us tap into our intuition, which is a much quicker and simpler way to increase awareness of ourselves and the systems we live in so that we can find a way forward.

He recognizes the paradox that whilst we accept that we are part of nature we often act as if we are not.

In this podcast I invite Alex to unpack the ways in which 'nature can be the best teacher' and to share what he is doing to explore this in his life and in his work as a coach and mentor to numerous businesses, social action groups, community groups and beyond.

You can find out more about Alex:

Jackie Le Fèvre lives in South Cheshire and is mum to 2 daughters, who she says teach her more everyday than she could hope to help them learn in a lifetime. Jackie works with values; in particular, exploring how understanding values can provide insight and meaning for motivation. She does this through her work at Magma Effect and in her everyday life too!

You can find out more about Jackie:

Pilar Orti is the Founder of Virtual Not Distant, where she helps organisations transition to an 'office optional' approach. ‘Office optional’ means that there is no dogma about where people should work - that the right workplace is whatever workplace supports someone to thrive. 

Pilar's work sees her challenging workplace conventions and creating thoughtful engagement with questions about what matters to us in our lives and at work, and how technology can help us to create workplaces that are more rather than less human.

You can find out more about Pilar by:

With 22 years of practical experience as a nursery teacher, Nicky Shaw has developed a neuro-aware approach to supporting children’s social and emotional development. Gone are the behaviourist-inspired techniques of naughty corners, reward stickers and discipline-focused strategies. In their place are attachment-focused conversations and responses, rooted in empathy, that help children to build their emotional literacy and self-regulate their response to emotional triggers.

The impacts of this approach have been profound. Perhaps most remarkable has been the impact on how children connect with each other. Even at these very early stages of childhood, the improved emotional literacy of each child has led to empathic interactions and understandings between children and an ability to co-regulate.

Nicky’s work with nursery children points the way to something essential in the human condition; a truth about how we really work. The model of emotional literacy and self-regulation that she has developed holds the promise of much a broader application. For example, if nursery children can learn to self-regulate and co-regulate then could this same approach provide a model for leadership, fellowship, coaching, team building, self-management and self-organisation in the workplace?

Find out more about Nicky:

Nick Parker lives and works in the South West of England, while also acting as Council Chair for the 30,000 strong RSA Fellowship. His work is geared towards creating the South West as a 'next stage' region, where has already engaged 200+ organisations in exploring 'next stage' ways of being and working.

You can find out more about Nick by connecting with him:

Henry Stewart is author of “The Happy Manifesto”, Chief Happiness Officer and founder at Happy - a London-based learning and consultancy provider that focuses on helping organisations to create happy and productive workplaces. Henry's work sees him supporting people to rethink the role of management, from being 'experts that tell' to being 'coaches that help and support'.

You can find out more about Henry by:

Saskie Dorman is a palliative care consultant in Dorset who has been working with local, regional and national colleagues to explore how to make what really matters to people business-as-usual.

Her work has led her to challenge many of the conventional approaches to understanding and managing performance and to experiment with alternatives.

Mark Smith is Director of Public Service Reform at Gateshead Council in the North East of England (UK). His work sees him challenging the conventions of standard setting and standardisation in order to pursue an approach to public service that he describes as bespoke-by-default.

You can find out more about Mark by: